Real Zombies

JIM HAROLD:  Really, really excited about tonight’s show, and that’s because of our guest.  The gentleman that I’m speaking of is Brad Steiger, and he was writing great paranormal works before most of us were born, and for five decades Brad has been devoted to exploring and examining unusual, secret, and otherwise strange occurrences.  A former high school teacher and college instructor, Brad published his first articles on the unexplained in 1956. Since then he’s written more than 2000 articles with paranormal themes.  He is author or co-author of more than 170 titles, including Real Ghosts, Restless Spirits, and Haunted Places; Real Vampires, Night Stalkers, and Creatures from the Dark Side; and The Werewolf Book: An Encyclopedia of Shape-shifting Beings.  He lives in Iowa.  And Brad, before we started, I was looking at your website again at bradandsherry.com, and I was looking at all the great shows you’ve been on over the years:  Nightline with Ted Koppel, of course Georgy Noory, Art Bell, the Mike Douglas Show… legends.  So it’s always a little intimidating to have you on, but it’s always a pleasure. We love having you on.  Thanks so much for coming aboard.

BRAD STEIGER:  Oh, it’s my pleasure Jim, and you need take a back seat to no one.  You do a very fine job on your program.

JIM HAROLD:  Thank you so much.  I appreciate it.  Well, I have in front of me, looking at me — literally — there’s this kind of… well…

BRAD STEIGER:  It does look at you, doesn’t it?

JIM HAROLD: It’s literally Real Zombies, The Living Dead, and Creatures of the Apocalypse by Brad Steiger, and there’s a being on here — I take it it’s probably a Zombie — with yellow eyes looking right at me.  What inspired you to write this book, because it’s a fascinating subject?

BRAD STEIGER:  Well, it’s… there are a number of reasons.  First of all, as with Real Vampires, I see all the young people going to see Twilight, screaming when Taylor Lautner takes his shirt off, screaming when Robert Pattinson comes out in sparkles in the sunlight, and I think, (laughs) that isn’t what vampires are all about!  And we’ve had this with the vampire now since Bela Lugosi, that the vampire is some sexy creature that you meet at a ball, and he takes you out on the veranda and with just a little bite on the neck you can be young and beautiful and I can be buff and handsome forever.  And this is a pretty potent lure… so I wrote that, as you know — because, as I recall, you did a very fine show on it.

JIM HAROLD:  Yes, you were on and it was a very interesting show.

BRAD STEIGER: At least from my perspective, and thank you for saying from yours. But I wanted to do the same with the zombie.  When I wrote the History of the Hollywood Horror Film in 1965, I didn’t even have a chapter on zombies.  There was only a few zombie movies out, and they weren’t really that in-depth.

JIM HAROLD:  And then came George Romero with his Night of the Living Dead, right?

BRAD STEIGER:  Exactly!  And then came George.  He saved up $5.98 and he managed to shoot it on the cheap with a bunch of friends, and you know, the rest is history.  But it’s a history, Jim, that keeps repeating itself over and over and over.  You know, from the very first, I liked the movie, but I thought, you know, the Night of the Hungry Ghosts or something would have been better, because I looked at that and I could say, ‘okay, this is spooky’, you know, ‘and they keep coming, and we keep shooting, but those aren’t zombies!  That’s your grandma and that’s your grandpa and that’s your uncle, and why are they coming to eat you?  Why do they want to feast on your brain? Why?

JIM HAROLD:  When people — and again, you’ve hit the stereotype.  I think that most people think of Night of the Living Dead and all the subsequent sequels — I think people might be likely to think there are real vampires out there, but you’re here to tell us there are actually real zombies out there, and it’s not just celluloid creation.

BRAD STEIGER:  Exactly, just as there are real vampires, there are real zombies, and they aren’t what you see.  Romero just did another one called The Crazies, and you might as well have called it the zombies, because it’s basically the same thing.  We have a strange virus that comes from somewhere outer space, or maybe some laboratory… they left the door open and an infested rat ran out, or whatever… and it starts biting people, and they die, and then they come back and they want to eat all the living.  Now, I think that those of us — now, this is the point, I guess, that bothered me from the beginning, when I saw the first Romero film, though I’ve probably seen it ten times like everyone else — I think for both of us who were reared in the Abrahamic tradition, you know, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, we have been taught since six years old in Sunday school, that the one great gettin’ up morning people are going to rise from their graves and walk about.  So, right away, when you’re a kid, you’re like “I’m not going near the graveyard!” because the Sunday school teacher tells you that not even the angels know when this is going to happen, so listen, you can really get taken by surprise.  And I don’t know if anyone has ever made that point before, but I make it in the book, that I think that is why subconsciously we are both so repelled and attracted, and that’s where the apocalypse comes into the cover title, because I think there is something very apocalyptic about it, I think unconsciously, and maybe I’m only talking from my own fevered mind, here, but I think unconsciously we kind of tie that in, so I think throughout the book I make the point that not only are there real zombies from their religious expression, but I think it really had a run on us.  Now the first one, Night of the Living Dead, he wanted to be about vampires, but then he decided — rightly so — that it would have been too close to Richard Matheson’s classic, you know, I Am Legend.  At first, you know, and then it became the first movie and, really, the better one, with Vincent Price, called The Last Man On Earth.  If you ever have the chance to see it on some late feature, be sure you check that out. And then of course, the Will Smith one, I Am Legend.  But it’s too close to have them vampires, so he changed them… what can it be?  What can it be? Well, gee… can’t be a werewolf… Zombie!  Because it really hadn’t been dealt with before.  So now we have, essentially — and I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with this, but we have a certain sameness to all of the zombie movies, but nothing about the tradition from which they actually do thrive, if you will, and how those legends came about, and how we have this combination of African religion and Roman Catholicism, that has given us another version of the resurrection, which they do a lot quicker than making the zombies.  You don’t wait until the trumpet blares and the sky clear on that great gettin’ up morning, you can have your zombie right away, put in your order.  Which a lot of rich, wealthy white men did, you know, around the 1820s.  They wanted some young, beautiful, light-skinned Negress, as they would call them in those days, on his arm at the ball.  And so there were zombifiers who would enspell these young zombie women.

JIM HAROLD:  Now, isn’t there a combination of different potions and so forth that can medically induce a type of zombification?

BRAD STEIGER:  That is exactly right, that’s what it is. Again, if you look at the side of the zombie actually being dead, there is that belief.  But in essence what we’re really talking about is a series of potent drugs — and I have a zombie potion, as you noticed, in the book, but I left out a couple key ingredients, but I think by the time you got through the list there you’d be so nauseated that you wouldn’t go any farther, and then I have some anti-zombie potions in there too that you might have better luck putting together, to prepare — but the zombifying reaches its peak in the name that almost everyone knows who is attracted to the paranormal, the occult, or the weird and unusual, and that’s Marie Laveau.

JIM HAROLD:  Yes, absolutely.

BRAD STEIGER: I don’t think anyone will argue with me in saying that she’s the most well-known zombifier in the world.  And actually what we have, then, as I said before, we have especially from the Aruba area of Africa, which is present-day Benin, in which they have a national zombie day once a year, national voodoo day and zombie day once a year, and the high priest struts about, but it came with the slaves, and the slaves of course were — not only had they been ripped from their homes and their families and their villages — but they had been ripped from their gods.  What can we do now?  The gods are home in Africa, and here we are — and I’m talking primarily now of Haiti and Brazil — so we have Spanish, French, and Portuguese dominance, and each one of those countries decree that every slave must be baptized Roman Catholic.  So their Shaman — now we say “witch doctor” but it’s actually a translation of “doctor” and then “witch” got thrown into it — but we say Shaman, it’s really a Siberian term which has come to be a collective for ‘medicine man’ or ‘medicine people’.  But the Shaman, or the doctor, or the priest — which is to say who they really are, they’re priests — not to worry, not to worry, the white man says we must worship Saint John, we must bow down to Andrew, we must… no!  It’s just, we call him Baron Samedi, now, and we call him… right down the list of primary saints, and gave them their names. And so, in public and in front of the white man, in front of the slave masters, they were attending mass. In their minds, and back in the jungle, they were having their own rites.  And it’s a combination of the two.  It’s interesting… we’re talking about Brazil. We’re going to have the next Olympics there. People are going to line up, and they’re going to dance to Samba– the rhythm of the saints. And what is the Samba?  It’s the original voodoo dance.  I can see people from all over the world who unconsciously are going to these various clubs, and they’re doing the Samba, and that is the rhythm of the saints, that’s what was devised in Brazil to appease the Portuguese masters.  Now, they had an advantage in Haiti, which was French until the revolution of the slave uprising, and in Portugal, and in the other South American countries, because the slave masters there let them keep their drums.  But, the Southerners in the United States and again just making a generalization, the countryside aforementioned were probably Roman Catholic at that time, and I think we will agree that the American South before the Civil War was primarily Protestant. And therefore — a little Calvinistic here — none of that drum beating; they were afraid in beating the drums and seeing the dance, and there were, as you know, Jim, a number of slave uprisings, that it would encourage a slave uprising.

JIM HAROLD:  If you look at the American South, there are whole sexual undertones and drums and rhythmic beats would engender a certain kind of sexual uprising, too, so I think that would seem to be a part of it, too, that sexual energy

BRAD STEIGER:  And then we have New Orleans.  New Orleans had been under French control, and we’re not certain when, but Sanite Dede, who was the first of the priestesses was brought over, we think she was brought perhaps from Haiti or Jamaica, then we have Marie Laveau, probably brought from one of the same two places, and New Orleans doesn’t have that kind of stricture, and they don’t have that kind of sexual repression at that time.  They have a much different attitude, as I said, Marie Laveau then could provide zombified, light-skinned Negresses — again, as I said, they were called then — for rich white men to go to their big parties and balls.  There they could dance freely, there they could drum freely, and the marvelous place where they did it was right next to Saint John’s church right in the square.

JIM HAROLD:  That’s such an interesting area, because of kind of the amalgamation of different cultures.  You have somewhat of the American culture, but as you said, extremely heavy French influence, heavy African, so it’s really kind of a melting pot, truly.  Now, when we think of Voodoo, you know, for most people Voodoo equals evil.  Voodoo equals bad.  Why is there such a negative spin on the religious beliefs of Voodoo, or the misconceptions?

BRAD STEIGER: Well, again, I think it’s because of the area.  Now, we have Brazil — just allow me to digress, or divert your question just a little bit.  But what do we have in Brazil?  We have… let me rephrase that.  Let me ask you a question: where is spiritualism stronger than anywhere else in the world?  Brazil?

JIM HAROLD: Yeah.

BRAD STEIGER:  There we have santisimo, which is grown up from the area.  We have a little bit of the native, and again we blend the African with the indigenous people of Brazil, and combined again with Roman Catholicism, again making the rhythm of the saints.  In New Orleans, then, we have that same kind of blacks, African Americans, who could buy their freedom easily in New Orleans, and make their own establishments.  Marie Laveau, in one of her lives, was a hair dresser.  Now she was in a very fortuitous area to pick up gossip about people.  Where — not to insult our lady friends, but — I’ve heard it said that there’s a lot of gossiping, and I can’t verify that but I’ve heard rumours that happens.  So she heard her gossip and she seems to know secrets about other people. That really catapulted her, and in those days who went to have their hair done?  The wealthy women, so again she gained the wealth.  And then there was Doctor John.  Now I don’t know if Doctor John really existed or not, but I include him in here because he’s legendary.  Doctor John was able to zombify you with just a wave of the hand or a flip of his fingers, then you’d be zombified. And even now they have certain areas in New Orleans, where if you sit on this one stone chair in Saint John’s cemetery, Saint John might appear and ask if you are going to obey him or not, but you don’t know what to say because either way you end up in either Saint John’s clutches or the deal is that you have to go to hell before he does.  But then when he goes to hell he gets to sit on you, so it’s not much of a deal to have Voodoo powers there.  But maybe I’m straying from your question.  We do have, of course, the negative aspect, because a zombie is, at its essence, a slave.  Someone who has been drugged, and remember in those days they surely didn’t embalm the dead, and they surely didn’t dig them six feet under.  So maybe under a foot and a half or two feet of dirt, after the individual has been lying there in what seems to be a death state, he is revived by another potion and then in this hypnotic trance-like state, there he is working a plow for the Voodoo priest who has now made a slave of him.  This still happens today.  I have an account from a gentleman in Miami who went to Haiti before the terrible tragedy that happened there.  But when Haiti was really a swinging place.  So he went over to Haiti from Miami, and he sees this lovely Haitian maiden who, seductively, ‘lets dance’ and he says he’s there for a good time and he’s dancing and then all of a sudden he feels this sharp prick in his shoulder. And he feels dizzy, he feels faint, ‘man I must be drinking too much of this rum’, and the next thing he knows, and he doesn’t know how much time has passed, he wakes up, he still has his nice white suit on, only now it’s stained and soiled and worn and ripped, and he’s working a hoe in somebody’s field. Now, he managed to gain enough consciousness and willpower to escape back to Florida, but he’s one of the lucky ones.  A friend of mine was in the Intelligence, he was working under cover in Germany after the war, and he was working on the drug detail, and he became acquainted with a very lovely Fraulein and soon their relationship led to the point where it was going to become intimate, and when she disrobed he saw the most horrid disfigurement on the lower part of her body.  And then she said that she had been zombified.  She had been put into the sex traffic trade; she had been just a living mannequin which could be used for any sex that individuals wanted.  Now here, as we know, there’s also another underground movement, underground Nazi groups — many many groups, perhaps, in Germany — and her father found out what had happened, and he got some of his boys to track her down and dealt extremely severely with those who had captured his daughter.  And she was now leading a normal life, but you know, but because of various unpleasant things that had been performed on her, she had a number of serious scars.

JIM HAROLD:  First of all, I must say to the listeners:  there’s so much in this book, I’m only scratching the surface here.  Now when we get back from this break, I want to talk about some more of the specific stories…

(break for commercial)

I was telling him during the break that at time I find what he has to say so fascinating that I become more of a listener than an interviewer, and we’re so glad to have him here.
Brad, you know, there are some great chapter titles here, and I’m just going to read off a couple and let you vamp on them and let you talk about it. And one that got my attention was “A Devil Baby of Bourbon Street.”  Tell us about the devil baby of Bourbon Street.

BRAD STEIGER:  Well, as I said, there are a number of stories of the Devil Baby, and it’s hard to know where these end, and a very fine writer — and I must say, at this point, one of the other reasons I wanted to do a book about Voodoo and zombies is that I really didn’t know that much about it, and unless I had received valuable help from practitioners, from priestesses, from those who are practitioners, priestesses and so forth, who attend the rites and been taught by some of the masters and mistresses of the art and the religion, I wouldn’t have been able to do this book.  So, this book relies very heavily on the research assistance I have received from those who are actually performing and are actually doing these things.  So, the devil baby of Bourbon Street is fascinating — as I interrupted myself, as I often do — Alyne Pustanio, who is a folklorist, not one of the practioners, as are some of the others that I will mention later, and I even have a section in the book — almost a directory — with their various numbers and so forth so you can contact some of those people.  She writes a story that tells of the devil baby occurring to a wealthy family who made a deal with devil, so to speak, one of the — and here we have religion, let’s face it, and those who are really sincere and devout and those who will take a little silver, will take a little gold, and do things they should not — and that is one story that even Marie Laveau said, ‘uh-huh.  I’m not messing with what you have done.  Don’t you realise that when you make a deal with Baron Samedi, with the gods, now you are in trouble.”  In that version, it is eventually Marie Laveau who has to kill the baby, because as soon as the baby is born, they know right away that something is wrong with this baby, because he starts eating his brothers and sisters.

JIM HAROLD:  That would be a clue.

BRAD STEIGER:  (laughs) Yeah, that would be a give away.  Then the other story of the devil baby is essentially that — and again, there’s always some curse or some involvement in which someone has transgressed one of the basic laws of Voodoo, and then brought this wrath down upon them.  In this particular version, the devil baby again starts gnawing on his brothers and sisters, and is essentially cast out of the home, but continues to haunt the area of Bourbon Street and Saint John’s, and hides in the bushes and jumps out at people and even today you have to be careful because that little devil baby with the horns and the tail… they tried to get him once, a group from the church, he would howl during church services, so a group from the church managed to capture him, and they took him to the altar and they nailed him to the altar and they cut him into several pieces and they buried him under the tombstone of allegedly Doctor John or one of the other great Voodoo masters, but that didn’t stop him.  He just put himself together again and he’s still roaming the streets, especially at Mardi Gras.  If you say the right thing to him at Mardi Gras, he might leave you alone.  But you have to be certain to phrase it just right, like “I really love New Orleans, I really love visiting here.”

JIM HAROLD:  I really wouldn’t want to upset him.  Now, you talk about curses, spells, and hexes, and I think when you talk about Voodoo, most people think about the Hollywood version of the Voodoo doll. Did you do any work on that, and is that a total misnomer or is that a real thing?

BRAD STEIGER:  See, this is again the reason, you know, I try — it’s the teacher in me — I want to try to straighten out certain matters.  Most of what we hear about Voodoo that is negative has to do primarily with people who have immigrated with certain superstition beliefs from Europe, and then projected those superstitious beliefs and fears on the Voodoo, and there is… there has never been human sacrifice involved, but there has been sacrifice of an animal, primarily a chicken.  And yes, blood is consumed, and the dance is danced until the loa — a loa which is a spirit — comes from Baron Samedi, or comes from Damballa Wedo, that is the serpent and the rainbow.  Damballa is the great python that coiled and formed the earth, and then looked over the ocean that he had just created, and said, “look at that beautiful rainbow.  That is Wedo, and I’m going to marry Wedo.”  So Damballa Wedo is really what we would call Voodoo.  It’s the worship of Damballa Wedo. So, in the doll, the idea of sticking a pin into the doll, that comes from a European black magic, probably from … you can’t pinpoint it, but probably from the area of Northern Spain, when we had the invasion of the Moors and we had a combination of several cultures, and the Witches — the true Witches — began to use the doll to pierce.  Now, when a Voodoo practitioner puts the pin into the doll, it’s not to curse anyone or to hurt anyone or cause any pain, it’s the key to keep the loa, which has now entered the doll during the ceremony, it’s to keep the spirit in.  It’s the complete reverse.  The pin keeps the spirit in, so you carry your Voodoo doll and your mojo bag, and it wasn’t Austin Powers who came up with the mojo, it was Voodoo. The mojo bag comes from Voodoo, and you keep your doll with the pin, keeping the Voodoo inside the doll.

JIM HAROLD:  I’m looking through the directory or the table of contents here, and I’m just going to read off a few so folks can hear some of these titles, because they’re great.  I know we’re not going to have time to go through all of them, and I do want to get to this Bobby Kennedy question, but we do have, you know, “How to Make a Zombie,”  “Witchcraft and Voodoo,” “Black Mama Couteaux and the Great Zombie War”…

BRAD STEIGER:  (laughs)  That’s one of my favourites.

JIM HAROLD:  “Recipes to Feed Hungry Ghosts” and it goes on and on.  Really, I do recommend this, if you’re at all interested in the paranormal or the topic of zombies, this is a great book to have.  One thing you talk about is a zombie maybe in more modern times, you talk about Hitler’s quest to zombify the world, but also you talk about… I’ve always been interested in the paranormal but also in politics and history and things like it, and I think most people would agree that one of the turning points in the twentieth century was the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, and I’ve seen documentaries that have nothing whatsoever to do with the paranormal that say that Sirhan Sirhan, the gentleman who was convicted of being the lone assassin, that he was almost in a spell.  So when I saw what you wrote here, I thought it was very, very interesting.  Can you tell us what you learned in your research about Sirhan Sirhan and perhaps if he had in some way been zombified.

BRAD STEIGER:  Yeah, that’s going to be a tough one to cover in a limited period of time (laughs)

JIM HAROLD:  We’ll get into the highlights and then they can buy the book.

BRAD STEIGER: Yeah, highlights.  We have to start, of course, in Nazi Germany.  We have to start with the techniques that they were employing.  Fluoride was given heavily to the inmates in experiments to see how it would break their will.  It was Hitler’s belief when he invaded Poland that he would put large amounts of Fluoride into the water to make the people just zombies.  Hoffman was experimenting with LSD at the same time, and so they tried in the camps first to use LSD, which was unsuccessful, and so they thought to make super warriors, they wanted to make super warriors, so they gave it to a squad of German soldiers just going on a field march, but without telling them, they gave them all LSD to see how fierce and angry and ferocious they became, just like Vikings. Well, it didn’t happen that way, they ended up hugging each other and climbing trees and look at the beautiful flowers…

JIM HAROLD:  Just the opposite effect.

BRAD STEIGER: Exactly!  The opposite effect.  So they kept experimenting with this, and we have then individuals, before the smoke had even cleared from World War II, we had brought individuals over who then formed our CIA, which had been the OSS in World War II. These individuals began experimenting and in the book I have how the CIA, how the entire nation, we will hope the CIA always stays true blue and salutes the red, white, and blue, but we have right now the power to make large portions of the nation zombified.  With Sirhan Sirhan, there is strong evidence that he was programmed.  He liked to hang out at this one occult shop, and that was noticed by certain individuals.  He began to be programmed, he carried his Madam Blavatsky with him all the time; it’s the first book he asked for when he was put in jail.  He began to work with the occult, and certain people began to appear. Now I would suggest that he was strongly hypnotized, and a mirror was used, which was an ancient technique, also for him to stare into to hypnotize himself. He was programmed to do this.  As you said, he seemed, after he had shot Kennedy, he said, ‘what happened?  Who got shot?  What am I doing here?”  And then there are many people who are sighted, we have pictures of them, the girl in the red polka dot dress and all these individuals who just seemed to vanish, and they actually, I remember the trial.  They were going to use as a defense — now this is a matter of record — they were going to use as a defense in his trial that he was possessed by an Arab terrorist. Now, again, his little village, which I happen to have gone through, is not a place that would encourage terrorism, and because he had been a very gentle individual, how does he become the man who assassinates. Well, the other chapter — I have a number of chapters related to this in the book — of how this programming can be done.  Ted Kaczynski, the unibomber, was another one.  He was in college when he was seventeen.  He was selected, he was programmed, only it backfired again. He started attacking his professors and started attacking… the complete reverse of how he had been programmed to do.  There is that within us, I feel, a moral fence, that will fight evil.  But I’ve got in Real Zombies techniques that have been used by our own forces, even killing individuals and seeking to bring them back.  The Frankenstein monster ties into this too; we have this as our zeitgeist.  We have so many philosophies, thoughts, all these things going.  That’s why it’s not just “real zombies”, but also “the living dead” and “creatures of the apocalypse.”  These things I brought together, I hope, in some kind of cogent form.

JIM HAROLD:  And kind of to wrap up, bringing it full circle, you talked about the apocalypse.  Aren’t the return of zombies saying to us that we might be on the doorstep of the end?

BRAD STEIGER:  Well, I started, when I sat down, I was thinking and I went to see Shaun of the Living Dead, which satirized it…

JIM HAROLD:  That’s a sign of the apocalypse itself!

BRAD STEIGER: (laughs) and satirizes it, and then, here they are again… and suddenly, I thought, “wait. Wait, now.  Is some force, is some intelligence, trying to tell each other not that the dead is going to return and start eating us and needing our brains… what if the entire arrangement that we’re involved in is programmed?  Maybe the zombie is telling us something about the apocalypse?”  Now, you’re familiar with the Gaia theory, and that was very big and new age.  Gaia’s our mother, and now a professor’s come up with that maybe there’s an anti-Gaia force.  Maybe a species as created has its time on the stage, and then the entire earth is made barren again, and we start over with another species.  So maybe, maybe the zombies, and the fact that we’re so fascinated with the zombies now, maybe we recognize that they’re our evil twin.

JIM HAROLD: That certainly is an interesting thought. And an interesting, interesting 45 minutes or so we’ve had. Brad, you have such a great body of work over the last 50+ years.  Where can people go on the internet to find out more about what you have done, what you are doing, and what you’re going to be doing in the future?

BRAD STEIGER:  Well, they can go to our website, of course, that would be the place to start.  You can go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble to see the books, but if you want to read articles and some of the books and reviews and so forth, just go to our website, and it’s easy, at www.bradandsherry.com is enough to get you there.

JIM HAROLD:  And we will put links to this book and also to bradandsherry.com at jimharold.com.  Now, obviously, right now this book just came out and you’re right in the middle of the promotion of this, and I’m sure you’re going to be on a ton of media and radio shows and so forth. We expect to hear you all around the dial.  In addition to this, what else do you have going on?

BRAD STEIGER: Well, coming out in time for Hallowe’en is Real Monsters, Creepy Creatures, and Nightmarish Beings.

JIM HAROLD:  Ooh.  That sounds like a good one.

BRAD STEIGER:  That is being promoted at the great book fair in New York right now.  That’ll be coming out on Hallowe’en.

JIM HAROLD:  Can we have you back to talk about that one, too?

BRAD STEIGER: You’d better!

JIM HAROLD: I will do my best!  Brad Steiger, thank you so much for being on the show, it’s been a lot of fun, and I haven’t gotten quite through this book because, folks, there’s a lot here.  But I’m working my way through it and I appreciate your time tonight.

BRAD STEIGER:  Well, I appreciate always your attention and your ability to ask the right questions.  And I promise you, if you’re not quite finished, you got a lot of scares left in this book.

JIM HAROLD:  I’m looking forward to it, and listeners, thank you for tuning in to this edition and we’ll talk to you next time on the Paranormal Podcast.