Dave Schrader joins us to talk about his latest TV show, Ghosts of Devil’s Perch debuting on August 21st.

You can find it then on Travel Channel and Discovery+

Thanks Dave!

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TRANSCRIPT

[intro music]

This is the Paranormal Podcast with Jim Harold.

JIM HAROLD: Welcome to the program today. We have an old friend who keeps going from strength to strength. You know him from The Paranormal 60. He’s been featured on shows like Ghost Adventurers, The Holzer Files. He’s just prolific. He’s everywhere, and he’s at it again.

We’re talking about Dave Schrader, and he has a new series starting off, The Ghosts of Devil’s Perch. It’s premiering Sunday, August 21st on Travel Channel and Discovery+, and we’re so glad to have him on the show and to talk to him about this new series. It sounds exciting. Dave, welcome to the show today.

DAVE SCHRADER: Jim, it’s always a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you for having me on.

JIM HAROLD: You’ve done a number of different shows over the years; what gets your juices flowing? What gets you excited about this new show, The Ghosts of Devil’s Perch?

DAVE SCHRADER: I was really lucky with the last series, The Holzer Files, to get to walk in the footsteps of the legend Hans Holzer and get to reexamine and reinvestigate his case files. He had thousands of these case files where he looked at all aspects of the paranormal. The Ghosts of Devil’s Perch takes me into a new, uncharted territory for myself. This is the fourth in the series. Series 1 and 2 were Ghosts of Shepherdstown. Series 2 was Ghosts of Morgan City – or Series 3, technically.

But Series 4, they put Cindy Kaza and I from The Holzer Files back together, J.P. Gallagher, the mayor of Butte, Montana, along with Sheriff Lester. We’re dealing with some supernatural occurrences. As Sheriff Lester says, “If it’s a bad guy, I can slap cuffs on him and take him in. How do you deal with the paranormal?” There was such a strange uptick that they were looking for help. They were hoping that somebody could come in and give them the aid that they were unable to give to the community, and that’s what our team set out to do.

JIM HAROLD: How in the world did they find you guys? I love the idea that they said, “We need to find some ghost investigators and get this thing figured out!” How did they find you guys? In the olden days – and you’ll remember these days – you looked in the Yellow Pages, and it might be hard to find. How did they find you guys, and how’d you get connected?

DAVE SCHRADER: Cindy and I were standing under an overpass with a cardboard sign that says “We’ll ghost hunt for food.”

Cindy and I had come from The Holzer Files, and when the other two, Shepherdstown and Morgan City, were so popular, and other mayors and police chiefs from around the United States had been looking for help, the network jumped to it and put together the team.

Ben Hanson was off looking on some other things, Lemos was off working on other things, so Cindy and I jumped in, and K.D. Stafford, who’s the mad scientist of the paranormal – he builds equipment on the spot. He’s like the MacGyver, Jim. “If we could just test this theory…” I turn around and he’s got a coffee can and three nuts and some coil going over to the car battery and all of a sudden we’re talking to the other side. It sounds like an over-exaggeration, but he was that good. He’d just start building things onset with these theories in mind to see if we could test them and find a way to communicate with the spiritual realm.

K.D. had been on Ghosts of Morgan City; they brought him over into this. So he’s the link between Morgan City and Devil’s Perch. And then Cindy and I come in from The Holzer Files; they just knew that they’d have a readymade team, somebody that the viewers of the last series would recognize and somebody that people recognized from The Holzer Files.

JIM HAROLD: One thing that appeals to me about it – I was looking over the materials and things – is there’s a definite historical piece to it, and I love the history of these haunted places and spaces. From your perspective, can you talk a little bit about the history of this place? Because I’ve got to believe – I think we’re kind of kindred spirits with that in the sense that we both appreciate history and are interested in history. Can you talk about the history a little bit of Devil’s Perch?

DAVE SCHRADER: I think you have to be careful using the term “kindred spirits,” Jim. That’s trademarked.

JIM HAROLD: You know, when I said that, I’m like, maybe that wasn’t the best choice of words.

DAVE SCHRADER: [laughs] That’s Amy and Adam, and they’re doing a great job on their own.

Yeah, part of what draws me to these types of stories is the history. This wasn’t just another series of ghost hunting; I was going to get to go to one of the most historic cities in the United States, the copper capital of the world at one point. This place was bigger than Las Vegas and Los Angeles and Texas with people that lived there, this boomtown.

To take it from that to where we are now and realize this area is steeped in history, and it’s truly made on the backs of workers’ blood, sweat, and tears, and get to walk in those footsteps and follow those pathways and streets where the supernatural and the natural collide – and they’re doing a lot of revitalization in the town of Butte. They’re really updating it and making it accessible to new families and businesses and things moving there. That really was a perfect storm for the paranormal to reignite. You know that; we’ve heard that enough times, that when you start restoring or messing with an area, it can stir up the spiritual realm.

I think there’s a lot of these spirits that felt like, “You know about the copper barons. You know about these famous people that came through here. But don’t forget about us. Don’t forget about those who built this town, whose hard work went into this, the people that died in the mines, the people that died on the streets trying to protect the city and protect each other.”

It’s a really powerful story of showing what America truly was about. It was a land of opportunity. It was a land of new, wide open spaces and experiences. We were just getting it right. They were just trying to figure this whole thing out, and that’s where we step in now all these years later, getting to reexamine these stories and these histories, and pulling from the history books these names that have long been forgotten and trying to give them a voice so that their spiritual connection to now is heard again.

And they have great stories. Like I said, history, as you know, is always filled with the winner’s story, and you never hear about the guy who really found this or set this in motion. Now we get to go back and hear from those spirits. They were crying out. They wanted, they demanded, to be heard and recognized.

JIM HAROLD: I know my grandfather was a coalminer, so I used to, as a child, go to the coal town where he used to mine. You could just walk through it – and it was largely abandoned, but you felt like you could feel the presence of these people who lived there. Was that your experience in Butte? Did you feel those people from all those years ago?

DAVE SCHRADER: Oh yeah, without a doubt. Jim, when you’re walking down these streets and you’re walking through these buildings that have stood for 100-150 years and you hear the stories, and that there are descendants of those people still living in this town, you’re not far removed. It’s not like we’re investigating someplace that was off the map and grid forever and there’s no survivors from that. We’re three, four, five, six generations removed from that, but those people are still in town.

We had to do them right as well. We wanted to give them back their history, give their families and friends the right platform to tell their story. And that’s what we did. But yeah, there was no doubt you could walk into some of these locations and you just knew you weren’t alone. And it was everywhere.

JIM HAROLD: Is there some thought – and maybe this is something that was discussed on the show, maybe it’s something that wasn’t – was there some thought that perhaps the fact that you had an area very rich in minerals, that it was a place that maybe held on to these spirits, held on to paranormal activity because of the mineral richness of the area? Was there any thought given to that, or am I just, as usual, out there in space somewhere?

DAVE SCHRADER: Oh yeah. No, you’re right. We examined many different aspects of that and uncovering that. What people might not be familiar with is the Stone Tape theory, the piezoelectric theory, all of these concepts that the stone holds memory, that it records, like a template, the experiences that have happened there before.

You’ve got these rich deposits all over the place; you’ve got underground water currents. And then you’ve got these copper veins that stretch out throughout the entire area and encompass it. Basically, Jim, it was like a prehistoric internet. There was still this connectivity, these stories. If we are to believe that spirits can truly manipulate electromagnetic fields, copper is one of the best ways to zip around and make these connections. That’s why phone lines were made of them, and the telegraph, because it could take these electric pulses and turn them into a message.

I think the spirits figured that out. You’ll see as the series progresses, Ghosts of Devil’s Perch – it’s an eight-episode series. Begins airing on Travel Chanel and Discovery+ simultaneously on August 21st. Runs through the middle of Ghostober. It’s really a great opportunity for people to come along on this journey with us and see the interesting way that these spirits make themselves known to us.

JIM HAROLD: I wonder, when you go to these towns – obviously, you have the town fathers and leadership that sound like they were onboard and wanted to do this. Do you ever run into people who are a little skeptical and say, “I don’t know about this”? And then maybe who, as time goes on and they see things develop, change their way of thinking? Whether in this series or another one, does that sort of thing occur at all?

DAVE SCHRADER: Yeah, certainly. When we did The Holzer Files, we were going back and reinvestigating a lot of Hans Holzer’s famous cases, but there were some of the cases we approached in the first season who were like, “Mm, no thanks.”

And then when they saw that we went into it with the approach of Hans Holzer – it wasn’t sensationalized, it wasn’t overly dramatic; we were revealing what the truth was to be told – suddenly they started opening their doors up in the second season. They were like, “Listen, we watched Season 1 and we really like the way you people handle yourselves and handle the location, so we’ve reconsidered it. We’ll let you in.”

One of the Season 2 episodes – and it is out of my head right now; I can’t remember the name – but it was a former plantation area, and Hans Holzer had heard about these ghost stories and just showed up knocking on their door one day and was turned away. They were like, “Nope. We don’t need you, don’t want you. Just go away.” They were okay with the spirits that were there. But the family now, the grandchildren that own this property, were okay with us coming in there and talking because they love the history so much that they knew telling the ghost story was a great way to shoehorn in history and teach people in an entertaining, educating, and enlightening way. Then the spirits had their own stories to tell.

So there was this kind of reticence at first in some of these areas to share their stories. I worked behind the scenes for five years on Ghost Adventures as a location scout, and it would be funny; I would hit up locations that would say, “Nope, we don’t want anything to do with you guys. We don’t want anything to do with the paranormal.” That’s because they had been burned in the past by independent groups. Then they saw that we handled the history right, we told the story right.

I would tell them, “Do me a favor.” I would point out two or three episodes form the season before. “Just go watch these as an example. I think you’ve got a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding of what to expect.” Then they went back and a lot of them were like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, we’ll let that come in. We’d like to be a part of that and we’d like to share that history.”

Then you’ve got other locations that changed their mind. The Stanley Hotel. They built their reputation on the paranormal, and then they step away and they’re like, “We’re above the paranormal. We’re a boutique hotel now,” and then they go back to the paranormal, and then they pull back again. So there’s some of these places that don’t know how to fix their identity, and they’re afraid that the paranormal is going to taint them.

I said, “No, why are you so in love with this property? Why are you here?” They tell me, “We love the history.” I go, “Right. And you know what bores the hell out of people? History. But if we can tell that history in an entertaining way, tie it to these historical figures and give people a different insight into them, people are going to learn about it.” It’s like the Field of Dreams. “Build it and they will come.” Let us share it and they will come.

And they did. It didn’t affect the Queen Mary. It didn’t affect the Stanley Hotel. They were booked constantly because of these paranormal shows, because it did tell those stories and it did bring you in, and it made you feel like this is home, and you could go there at any time and become a part of that history.

JIM HAROLD: I believe the problem with history is the way that it’s taught, because history is fascinating. I hear people say, “I love the paranormal. I don’t care for this history stuff.” It’s like, wait a minute. That’s like peanut butter without jelly, it’s like water without a glass. It’s part and parcel. It’s one and the same. It’s just people are taught this dry, boring version of history.

I think if they were brought into it, as you said, in an entertaining way – and yes, the paranormal is kind of the dessert to eat your dinner – but I think it’s a great thing to be able to make history come alive for people. I think that pursuit of the paranormal does that.

DAVE SCHRADER: When you get a chance to hear the ghost – we can go to the conference house where Ben Franklin stood there for two hours, negotiating with the King of England’s people and talking to him about what we would and would not do in our settling of this new country, and then rebuking them when they tried to buy him off – that’s an interesting piece of history. But eh, big deal.

But when you go in there and now the fact is we may hear from Ben Franklin or we may hear from one of these spirits themselves sharing an interesting piece – and we did. Man, in that story, it came alive, and we found out a whole different part of the history that had been pushed aside. This place was so rich and interesting.

It was only two hours. Two to three hours of their entire 200-year existence was built on this, and all the rest of the stories were there and forgotten about because you had put the Grammy or the Oscar on top of the pile of all the other things that came before it and that’s all they saw. These other spirits and stories came forward.

And that’s what we’re doing now with The Ghosts of Devil’s Perch. We’re going in and plumbing the depths of these historical places and stories and people and realizing that they were more than just workers and prostitutes and miners and this, that, and the other, but that they had hopes, dreams, and desires. They wanted more. They needed to get more. And you can tell these stories, and now you tune in, and it’s not just Dave Schrader and Cindy Kaza and K.D. Stafford telling you these stories, but I’m standing there with my recorder and I get the voice, and it tells me “I did this, and now I’ll do this again.” Wow. You heard from history. History spoke to us. That’s a fascinating way to tell and teach people.

None of these series come off preachy or teachy, where you feel like “Ugh, I’m going to be sitting in on a history lesson.” It’s just part of the journey. You can’t get to the truth without knowing what came before it. I’ve been extremely pleased with the shows I’ve worked on, that they take the history seriously.

And we’ve got the town historian, Chris Fisk, one of the local high school teachers, one of the town tour guides. You can find him on the weekends as he’s out touring and talking about the spirits and spooks of Butte, because he knew the importance of sharing this history and finding an entertaining way to do it and going out there. This was amazing. He helped breathe life into these characters for us so that when we went there, we knew who we were talking to. We knew who and what the backstory was, or at least what history had told us.

Some of these spirits came out screaming to let us know, “They got it wrong. This is where you need to look.” There were times we would surprise the historian because we would come up with a piece of evidence Cindy picked up on psychically, or I would get through EVP, or K.D. would get through a piece of equipment, and we would take that to the historian and he’d be like, “I’m not familiar with that, guys. I’ve been here my whole life.”

Sure enough, he’d go in with his – gosh, I wish I could remember the name of the group. He has this great little group of historians that he works with. It’s not the Brat Pack, but it’s something along that, and they’d go in and they would dig, and all of a sudden they’d be like, “Holy cow, you’re not going to believe this. You gave us this name, you gave us this concept. We looked in, and there’s one mention of it. Then we started tracing back, and here’s the story.” It comes alive. It’s like a Broadway play. We give them the first few notes, and the rest of the song plays out. It’s awesome.

JIM HAROLD: That’s very neat. And it’s pretty cool we’re talking with Dave Schrader about his new upcoming show, Ghosts of Devil’s Perch. We’ll be back right after this.

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If you love the Paranormal Podcast, be sure to check out Jim Harold’s Campfire, where ordinary people share their extraordinary stories of ghosts, UFOs, cryptids, and terrifying encounters. Find it for free wherever you listen to this podcast. Tune in to Jim Harold’s Campfire today. Now, we return to the Paranormal Podcast.

JIM HAROLD: I want to talk to you about the team and the construction of the team. There’s you – let’s start with you. In this particular series, how do you see your role? Are you the straw that stirs the drink? I think they used to say that years ago about Reggie Jackson for the Yankees. Whatever it is, what do you see your role as?

DAVE SCHRADER: That’s interesting. I am the lead investigator. I guess that’s the title that I’m given in this. Cindy is the voice of the spirit realm; she gets to tap into that. K.D. is the voice of today and yesterday. He can take the technology of today and bridge it with the past and give voice to the spirits so that we can hear what Cindy’s hearing. I guess I’m there almost like your narrator, like your favorite uncle who tells stories at all the parties that you’ve ever been to, and I get to hold your hand and walk you through the story and share all of the great characters that are involved in this.

Then during the investigation, hopefully as an anchor and a rock to build this investigation on with the history and information I bring to it, the pragmatic way I try to investigate, and then finding a way to utilize Cindy and K.D. and marry it all as one nice, perfectly moving unit.

I don’t know what the title is. In the old series, I was kind of the new age Dr. Holzer. I was the lead investigator doing this, and Cindy was the Sybil Leek, the Ethel Meyers, the voice of the spirits. And Shane was definitely the audience. He was an itchy, twitchy, nervous guy; when you put him in these places, you, the audience, could totally relate with “Why is Dave such a jerk? Why did he send him to the attic or the basement by himself?” That was the relationship. And Alexandra Holzer was the voice of her father. Gabe was there for this.

But when you come into this, we’ve got so many great working parts that there’s no one integral part because you’ve got to have the history from Chris Fisk, you’ve got to have the voice of the spirits coming from Cindy Kaza, you’ve got to have the technology working in perfect concert with what Cindy and Chris Fisk have given us, and then like I said, I’m hopefully bridging the gap between the audience and that to let you into my world, let you see what’s going on and how this all comes together.

JIM HAROLD: I’ve got to believe one of the cool parts of a show like this, and this show in particular, is talking with the townspeople and the experiencers, looking them in the eye, hearing the tenor of their voice. I remember when I was a kid, one of my favorite things to do – my family was from the country, from a rural area – going down, sitting on the porch and just hearing stories. And actually, some of those ended up being spooky stories. I think that’s how the whole Campfire thing got going.

But the point is, I’ve got to believe that’s one of the, for lack of a better word, funnest things about doing this: just talking to regular, salt-of-the-earth people, and hearing their stories as told by them directly to you.

DAVE SCHRADER: And when you’re sitting there in front of a family that’s having an extraordinary experience, and part of it is electric and exciting and part of it is terrifying, and then they look at you and go, “I don’t want to leave this home. I don’t know what to do next” – that gives you the permission to go get the answers for them and help them so that they can continue to live in the place that they love.

They’re characters, man. They’re great characters. What an amazing, loving bunch of people we met when we filmed in Butte. There was so much camaraderie and love, and everybody knew everybody in town. We’d go into a location and we’d be investigating and talking to the owner and he’d say, “Is this happening anywhere else?” We’re like, “We just came from the Fink house.” “The Finks are dealing with this? I know them. They go to my church” or “We have dinner every Thursday. I wonder why they’re not talking to me about this.”

You realize everybody’s kind of got this, and I hope this brought the community together, because now people realize it’s taking place and they’re not alone. They’re not nutballs for having this. It’s something that is affecting many different people in different ways. Hopefully this opened up that opportunity for them to have a dialogue and even get closer. What they might’ve thought made them different and an outsider from the rest now builds them together in a shared existence that “we’re both dealing with this.”

It was great. We certainly had some characters. I believe in the first episode, I went to one of the bars there to meet with Frankie Angel, who was an experiencer and had a very profound experience at one of the locations. She plays piano in this bar. It’s what you would picture these old town bars would look like and the people there. While we’re filming, you can see some of them looking at me with that quizzical look on their face, like, “Who is this guy? What’s he doing in our town?”

But as the story goes on and they’re listening, they would come over to me afterwards and be like, “If you think that’s crazy, you’ve got to come to my house.” We spun off in these other stories. So it was great.

I love the people that we met in Butte, and I hope that they accept the series with open arms and open hearts. God willing, if people watch it and like the show and if Butte needs us, I’m more than happy to get back on the horse and ride back into town again. I can’t speak for my partners because life goes on and we’ve got stuff doing, but I think that they were as fascinated by the history and story and the charm of the people there that they would love to join in as well.

JIM HAROLD: I know the show is coming up August 21st on Travel Channel and it is going to be on Discovery+, and that’s going to be into October, or Ghostober.

DAVE SCHRADER: Yeah.

JIM HAROLD: I know you don’t want to give too much away, but you are a master storyteller. Can you tell us one story? Just one little story, Dave. Just a little taste.

DAVE SCHRADER: I’ll tell you what. I can’t tell you anything that will appear in the series, but one of my favorite moments that started tragically – there’s an experience that sees me go the hospital, puts me in the hospital, Jim.

JIM HAROLD: Whoa.

DAVE SCHRADER: Yeah. I won’t say what it is. It was a wake-up moment for me with the paranormal. Let me put that very clearly. It was a wake-up moment with the paranormal. I went to the hospital, and it was late at night as we were filming late, and nurses and doctors came in to check in on me.

Then they started asking, “Where were you? What happened to you?” I don’t want to tell them, “I think a ghost hurt me” or “I might’ve been pushed” – you don’t want to say something paranormal because I don’t know what happened. I wanted the doctors to tell me. Trust me, more than anything I wanted them to go, “Oh, your appendix ruptured. We’re going to put you in surgery.” I wanted answers from them. They wanted answers. “Where were you? Are you filming a TV show in our town?”

I started talking to the doctors and nurses at this fully functioning hospital; there is a very well known hospital in town that is defunct. It’s just the building. It is well known to be very haunted. But here I am in the regular hospitals, and nurses and doctors did come in one by one going, “I’ve got to tell you what happened to me here. There’s a little girl that haunts the third floor. We’ve all seen her. She’s usually sitting on one of the sinks, looking in the mirror, or she’ll play with the water and turn the water on. You’ll see her there, one second the water goes on, and then she’s gone and the water’s still going.”

There’s stories like that that grab your attention and you start realizing – and “Oh, we saw this happen, and I’ve seen that happen. There’s this woman that is seen going into rooms, and we started to realize when we see her go into rooms, most likely whoever’s in that room is soon to pass.” You start to realize there’s no place that isn’t haunted in this town in one way, shape, or another. That’s profound. That tells you something. That’s different than any location I’ve been in.

The Merchant’s House Museum in New York is a haunted building, but next door doesn’t talk about and across the street doesn’t talk about it and the shawarma guy isn’t talking about it. They don’t have any problems. But you go into Butte and everybody has a story. Everybody has an experience. “Oh yeah, I woke up one day and standing over my bed were these two nuns, and they were looking at me with this quizzical look, and then they looked at each other and just kind of dissipated.” I’m like, “What were nuns doing there?” They’re like, “I found out that this part of the property I own used to be on the property where the hospital was.” It was those kinds of stories.

It makes you wonder if 100 years ago, did these two nuns come walking into a room and there’s this strange bed and somebody sleeping in it, and they’re standing over it going, “What is this?” And then the person wakes up, sees them, and all of a sudden they dissipate in that room. I would love to go back and find old diaries from that time and era. What did the people that lived here, worked here see for themselves?

Because I think a lot of the hauntings are time slip phenomena. I think sometimes the things they were seeing 100 years ago might be us now, looking through the veil, and we’re having that brief moment. That’s why the ghosts look surprised as much as we are, because they’re in 1912 or 1887, seeing Dave Schrader with his ear pods on.

JIM HAROLD: Yeah, “What in the world is that?”

DAVE SCHRADER: And a backpack and a K2 meter, and they’re like, “What?” [laughs]

JIM HAROLD: “Is this some kind of alien?” Yeah.

DAVE SCHRADER: Exactly. So I think there’s that aspect of it, and we start talking about soul fractures and how pieces of us are left behind. That really starts to make itself known in the stories.

Butte was great because it wasn’t one type of haunting. There wasn’t just an atypical grandma’s haunting in the house. We were running into history. We were walking into soul fractures. We were walking into time slip phenomena. It was a little bit of everything. It was the Old Country Buffet of paranormal activity. [laughs]

JIM HAROLD: Well, it sounds like a great place to have an invitation. I know that you want to invite everybody to watch Ghosts of Devil’s Perch, so tell everybody when and where they can do such a thing.

DAVE SCHRADER: They can tune in starting August 21st on Travel Channel and Discovery+. They’re dropping it simultaneously on both formats. Those of you with Travel Channel can tune in and check it out; those of you with Discovery+ can check it out. Stick with us. Watch this ride. I can promise you’re going to enjoy it.

And then as the season progresses, I’m going to be doing some independent – I do my podcast, The Paranormal 60 with Dave Schrader, on Mondays and Fridays, but I’m going to be doing a bonus episode as the series progresses where we’ll take a look at each episode and we’ll talk about what took place and what it meant to us and to the people that we were involved with. That’s going to be a little bit of a deeper dive behind the scenes.

So if people are interested in getting even more info, they can check out The Paranormal 60 with Dave Schrader on YouTube and the audio version anywhere you can get the podcast, and find out more in-depth stories.

JIM HAROLD: Excellent. Ghosts of Devil’s Perch. You’ve done it again, Dave. Congratulations, and wish you all the best with the show. And as always, it’s a lot of fun to chat with you.

DAVE SCHRADER: Always great catching up with you, Jim. Again, I just want people to know that you’ve been kicking at this now going on 17, 18 years and you keep doing the best of the work out there in this paranormal genre, talking about this and making it normal for people to feel comfortable opening up about their experiences. I personally want to thank you as a fan of the paranormal and as a contemporary in the field that you were one of the first pioneers out there doing this podcast format. Without you, a lot of the shows that exist now would not be there.

JIM HAROLD: Well, the same for you, Dave. The same for you. You certainly are a podcast pioneer as well. Always good to chat with you. Continued success, and thank you for the kind words.

DAVE SCHRADER: Thank you, Jim. Take care.

JIM HAROLD: Thanks so much for tuning in to the Paranormal Podcast. Always great to catch up with Dave and his latest adventures. We wish him all the best with the new show, and make sure that you check it out.

And make sure that you rate, review, subscribe, and follow this show. Let folks know how much you love it and make sure that you are following in the app of your choice so you never miss an episode. We’ll talk to you next time. Have a great week, everybody, and as always, stay safe and stay spooky. Bye-bye.

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