Otherworld is one of the hottest paranormal podcasts today. We talk with the creator and host of Otherworld, Jack Wagner, on this week’s edition of The Paranormal Podcast.
You can find Otherworld on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks Jack!
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TRANSCRIPT
Jim Harold:
Jack Wagner from Otherworld on the Paranormal Podcast right now.
Announcer:
This is the Paranormal Podcast with Jim Harold.
Jim Harold:
Welcome to the Paranormal Podcast. I am Jim Harold. So glad to be with you once again and we have the hottest Paranormal podcaster in the universe with us now.
Jack Wagner:
Wow.
Jim Harold:
Yeah, yeah.
Jack Wagner: I didn’t know that.
Jim Harold: And I mean, you’re very attractive, but that’s not what I meant. I meant, I meant that your show is super hot. It’s called Otherworld, and we’re talking of course with Jack Wagner who is the chief cook and bottle washer at that show and talking about him, what is Otherworld, how he got into it and all of that. Jack, welcome to the show today.
Jack Wagner:
Thank you. That’s an extremely flattering compliment coming from you.
Jim Harold:
Well, you’re the man.
Jack Wagner:
Legendary.
Jim Harold:
Oh, thank you.
Jack Wagner:
It’s been crazy. I’ve only been doing it for a year, so it’s interesting hearing somebody refer to me like that, but it’s a good thing, you know?
Jim Harold:
Absolutely.
Jack Wagner:
But still surprising.
Jim Harold:
I mean, you had a hit comedy podcast, you’re an internet personality, an internet influencer, what got you going on the paranormal?
Jack Wagner:
Well, first of all, I would say I had a decently big podcast. I wouldn’t call it a hit before that. We are doing fine. We are doing fine, but during Halloween, I thought it’d be fun. We were always just trying to grow, so I was always trying to do new things, and I thought it’d be fun to make a Halloween episode where I would maybe have a couple of my friends tell Ghost stories, not really something I thought too much about, and I asked our listeners if they had any, and that’s why I said we weren’t a very big podcast. It was interesting to me. We got so many submissions when I asked, I knew the size of our audience. I was the one kind of on the backend controlling the podcast and always paying attention to our audience numbers. So I did a little post asking if anybody had experienced something paranormal, and just in comparison to anything I’ve ever asked the audience to submit, I was just stunned at how many submissions there were from such a small podcast and a non paranormal podcast, and I started reading them and they were really, really intense.
And for somebody who has never thought too much about this, I was reading some of these experiences from what I would call everyday normal people who are about my age and similar. I was in my mid twenties probably then, not really thinking about bigfoots or ghosts or mortality. I was just thinking about being 27 or whatever, and it was really, really interesting and shocking, honestly, seeing some of these. So I was curious and just started interviewing them, and eventually I decided much later to try to turn it into its own thing. I did not think it would be anything besides something my friends would listen to for fun. But it ended up kind of taking off and I’ve just been running ever since, trying to keep these episodes coming out. It’s been quite a journey.
Jim Harold:
So where were you on the continuum of belief when you started off this and you said, oh, it’ll be a few fun ghost stories. Where were you then, and where’s Jack Wagner now? Have you progressed in believing, not believing, changed your attitude about it? Or are you pretty much the same place you were before?
Jack Wagner:
You know what, I think I was open. I thought it was interesting. It was always something where it’s like, oh, that would be cool if we were to find things out that supported the existence of aliens or ghosts or something like that. But I didn’t really think about it. I wouldn’t say I believed in it at all, and I don’t know if I’ve come further along in my beliefs. What has changed is that I’ve realized there’s less information out there disproving this type of stuff than I originally thought. There’s a lot of people, a lot of skeptics, the way people write off this type of stuff, a lot of the ways they do it is just kind of nonsense. Nobody really looks into it. But as I started looking into the way people write this stuff off, it ultimately is nonsense, and they’re doing their own form of jumping to conclusions, if that makes sense. I realized that we don’t know as much than originally anticipated.
Jim Harold:
Well, the thing for me is a lot of the naysayers, they talk about people have beliefs and very religious and things, but sometimes disbelief and skepticism can be as much a religion, like a fundamentalist religion is anything else. It’s like we’re locked in and it’s like, well, don’t confuse me with the facts. This is not possible. So it’s not possible La la la la I don’t want to hear it.
Jack Wagner:
A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I remember a few episodes into Otherworld where I was, it was not my full-time job, but I listened to some modern podcast that was covering Betty and Barney Hill. I think it was like an NPR or something like that. It was covering it as a historical event, and I don’t have strong opinions on that case, but I remember them. One of the people explained that they believed Betty Hill was basically imagining all of it because she was stressed about threats to women’s reproductive rights at the time in the sixties or fifties or whatever, and all of these political issues. I’m like, that is something I would’ve written for an essay when I was in liberal arts school, but normal people, that doesn’t make any sense. That’s like a plot of Mad Men, right? People when they’re going through history aren’t reflecting on the zeitgeist of the time in that way.
Jim Harold:
Right, exactly.
Jack Wagner:
It doesn’t make any sense, and it’s so dismissive and ridiculous.
Jim Harold:
Yeah, it’s looking like a 1960s happenings through a 2024 lens.
Jack Wagner:
Exactly.
Jim Harold:
Okay, so what area interests you the most? I know you do a broad range of topics. I try to do the same thing over the years. You had to narrow it down to one category. Which one fascinates you the most?
Jack Wagner:
I mean, this is a really broad topic, but I think consciousness, what is consciousness? The nature of our brain taking inputs and processing it into life as to how we experience it. So things related to NDEs really fascinate me, near death experience. Anything that sort of tests the bounds of consciousness, even if it’s not an NDE, somebody that remembers what happened in a coma, or people who have experiences, experienced time slips, astral projection, things like that, where whether you want to look at it from a scientific perspective or the ultimate woo woo perspective, it’s still really, really interesting. Those are my favorite types of things always where it’s like you don’t have to believe the spooky side of it to be fascinated by it. You know what I’m saying?
Jim Harold:
Yeah. With NDEs, what gets me is that, okay, there’s been research where people will be dead, flatlining, and then they can describe what the medical personnel are trying to do to revive them, and there was no way they know they’re floating above themselves and they can see what happens. I mean, how can you explain that away? I don’t get it. That’s why to me, if you had to ask me one thing, NDEs are number one on my list.
Jack Wagner:
Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And it seems to be something where when you talk to people who are in advanced areas of science really far along in their field, that’s something that usually they’ll bring up as an area of interest and mystery. It truly is. If you are to believe this materialist framework of the brain shuts off and everything shuts off for us, that’s it, lights out. Then how do you really explain people having these memories? Sometimes months of time they experience after death and then being revived. You could say that the brain made all of that up in the few minutes they’re out. But if the brain can do that and make you experience months of time, I mean, then what is the point of all this? If it could make you do that, then how real is reality? I know that sounds very cliche, stoner conversation, but it is a real question.
Jim Harold:
Well, I heard you say something on one of your podcast. I’m like, oh my God, I’m not the only one that feels that way is you said that all this stuff comforts you and people. I’ve been doing this quite a while, and people will say, it doesn’t freak you out hearing these ghost stories and talking about this spooky stuff. And I’m like, no, because to me, the ultimate frightening thing is the idea, once I die, it all turns off. It’s gone. The idea that anything that suggests that we move on, to me, it’s comforting. Even sometimes if it’s scary. It sounded like you feel kind of the same way, and I thought I was the only one.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, I, and also I think I’m like, what I’m doing is a noble pursuit. I’m not trying to summon demons or whatever. So it’s one of those where if it all becomes very real I think I’m in a good position.
Jim Harold:
Yeah, ,where’re Jack in the special, this is the one we summon demons, but go on.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it’s comforting. I focus on the good. I think Otherworld, I try, it’s not all about trying to terrify people. I try to focus on the good side of this and the inspirational side. I don’t think it needs to be all scary. I always find it very baffling. I’ll encounter somebody who’s somebody that they describes themselves as a complete atheist or agnostic. They don’t believe in anything, but they believe in demons. I’m like, wait, why would you only believe in the devil? That makes no sense. Why is that the exception? You believe only in one magical, bad being, but there’s no good. That’s insane. Why bother? That’s such a weird loophole. If you think you don’t believe in anything outside of the material world, that always cracks me up. It’s just such a funny way to look at the world. So yeah, I mean to me, I think the covered thing is if you believe, if the scary stuff, then there must be good out there too, right?
Jim Harold:
We are in mind meld, I say exactly the same thing. I feel like, in fact, as we’re recording this, we just released our Valentine special, and there’s a ton of spooky stories, and I do think evil is real, and I think there’s bad stuff out there, but I also think there’s good. I think that the supernatural is an extension of our world, the paranormal, and it’s in the same way. There’s a lot of bad stuff out there, but there’s a lot of good stuff too. And I think you sell yourself short when you don’t look at the whole thing and you just worry about demons or black eyed kids or djinn or whatever it is. When you just focus on one thing and don’t look at the whole continuum, I think you’re missing out on a big part of the picture.
Jack Wagner:
So I’m assuming you don’t get scared outside of work?
Jim Harold:
Oh, sometimes I get scared. I wouldn’t say never.
Jack Wagner:
That was my hesitation. I remember I wanted to do Otherworld as a seasonal show where I would put out 12 episodes a year or something, and my agent was like, no, you have to keep going. He laughed at me and I was like, part of the reason I wanted to is I was like, dude, I don’t want to be doing demon stuff every day. I’m going to go crazy or get myself haunted or something. That’s scary. But to my surprise, it’s actually, yeah, I haven’t found myself getting scared generally. I wondered if that was the same for you?
Jim Harold:
Not a lot. Once in a while. I mean, I’m like anybody else, but I mean, no. I mean, can sit in this room by myself and it could be two o’clock in the morning and I’m working on a podcast and it’s about something horrible, and it’s like it doesn’t bother me at all. So I think when it becomes work, but it’s good work. The thing is, is that to be able to do this and you’re experiencing this, to be able to do this for your job and talk about these things, it’s pretty awesome.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I really never thought I would be doing this. It’s pretty weird, but I guess I have always been interested in people’s stories and people in general. I think my show is about people more than it is about the Paranormal. So I guess it is. I guess when I look back now and kind of make sense of how I ended up here, whenever somebody told me a ghost story on a camping trip, classic situation, I would always have a million follow-up questions and would never just be satisfied with hearing the legend version of it. I would always be like, wait, you have to call that friend. What happened to them? What are they doing now? So that’s kind of what I try to do with Otherworld. It’s like as much as I can take it a little bit beyond the ghost story, even just fact checking it.
Jim Harold:
Well, the other thing is that to me, the experiencers are really important. I think it’s so important to respect
Jack Wagner:
A hundred percent
Jim Harold:
the experiencers, and I think you carry that through in a similar way in that you know what? These people have been made fun of, these people have been laughed at, whatever. Hey, my place is to listen to them respect what they’re saying, even if I don’t necessarily buy every single story. I think the vast majority of people I talk to are very sincere and to respect that and still keep an even keel, but really put the experiencers in at the forefront and really respect them. And it sounds like it’s exactly the same for you.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah. I think for me, so much curation goes into my show where I’m not just putting everything that gets submitted out onto my feed or even every interview. There’s so many interviews that just don’t make it on. But for me, it’s like I’m fine. If people are like, oh, maybe there’s a chance this person imagined part of it, or there’s an explanation for it, I’m kind of fine with that. I would never put any story out where I think the person’s making it up or seriously got something wrong. I go to pretty great lengths to check for that. And also with my stories, I usually am focusing on ones where it’s like, even if you think this person’s just insane and imagined all of it, it still affected their life regardless. And if you took that paranormal situation away, their life would be completely different. Usually having a profound impact on them, in some cases, even saving their life, those really interest me as well. More than just like boo, I saw a ghost in a hotel type stories. Regardless of your belief, some people’s lives have been changed or saved because of things like this.
Jim Harold:
Now we’re going to take a little break. Now we’re having a great chat with Jack Wagner. He is definitely a great communicator.
(16:45)
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(19:04)
And now we’ll get back to our interview with Jack Wagner. Okay, this is a tough question. What’s your favorite story so far and why?
Jack Wagner:
Ooh, favorite story or episode that I’ve done?
Jim Harold:
It could be an episode.
Jack Wagner:
I guess there’s not much of a difference. Not much of a difference. I mean, all of the long series I’ve done are my favorites, and Eilish Poe was one that was really, really important to me, and that’s a story of this woman who basically survived a murder. It was a murder attempt, but she basically got murdered and survived. That’s a more accurate way to describe it. Her ex, a guy she dated briefly, hid in her basement for almost two days, I think, hid in her basement and then popped out and stabbed her 16 times.
Jim Harold:
Oh my gosh. Terrifying.
Jack Wagner:
Changing the litter on her rabbit pet rabbit’s cage, and I mean, I don’t want to spoil too much, but she fights him off. And the way she’s able to survive that is where the paranormal aspect comes in, and she now deals with weird paranormal side effects after living through this. But that was one of my favorites because I felt so lucky to talk to somebody like this, and I don’t think she would mind me saying this, but speaking to her, it almost felt like I was talking to a ghost. You’re hearing somebody describe being stabbed so many times, it’s not many people live to tell their experience of that, obviously for obvious reasons. So that was one of my favorites. I feel like that’s probably a fan favorite of some. It was definitely different, but that was one of my favorites, especially because it was just such a challenge. I’ve never been trusted with a story like that,
Jim Harold:
And I bet, and when you first started the show, you didn’t have any hint of that? I don’t think necessarily. It was more of a lighthearted thing and not lighthearted in the sense, I’ll give you example, when I started Campfire. It was like, oh, I’m just going to hear people’s stories and it’s not going to be a big thing. It’s just going to be a fun little thing. And then all of a sudden people are laying these serious stories on me and it’s like, this means a lot more. Do you feel similarly, I guess?
Jack Wagner:
Yeah. I remember when I got that email from her, I was only a few episodes into the show, and I didn’t even really acknowledge the story. I just asked if I could call her, and I remember stepping outside and just calling her and being like, why do you want to talk to me about this? With all due respect, my show has been out for four episodes. This is a wild story. I guess she had been offered TV shows with Lifetime and some other network, maybe Netflix, I don’t remember. And I was just baffled. I was like, why would you want to tell it on my brand new show? And I don’t know, I guess she just heard a couple episodes and liked it and thought I would do a good job, which was sort of the hope of Otherworld. I was hoping that people who were kind of hiding these aspects of their stories, the paranormal aspects would feel comfortable enough to talk about it if it was done the right way.
Jim Harold:
You talked earlier about how it’s a situation where people focus on the negative all the time, but back to that idea of protection and those kinds of things, and I’m sure you’ve heard of the Third Man Effect where people are these life threatening situations and someone shows or something shows up to help them and they disappear. Somebody on the side of a mountain, a mountain climbing, and all of a sudden there’s somebody there helping them and they don’t know who they are and they disappear, that kind of thing. Do you believe in guardian angels and helpers who come to help us at difficult times in our lives, accidents, those kind of things?
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, belief is such a weird word. Sure. I think so. I would like to believe that. I believe it regardless. It’s something I’ve always, even just outside of making this show, I think everybody could relate to that in some sense, especially if you’ve ever lost somebody close to you. I think of it that way in the paranormal sense. I’ve definitely heard a lot of stories similar to that. I mean, actually, I’m working on one right now about my Valentine’s Day special is similar to that. Not entirely like guardian angel, but yeah, I mean, how could you not, right? If you think, and maybe this is why I’m able to sleep at night, if you think angry spirits can come and haunt people because they died in a painful way, wouldn’t you think that non angry ones would be able to be there to protect you in some way? Or just to be watching? I don’t know. I don’t know. I do not know how it works. I do not know how it works, but I feel like just the process of hearing all of these, you sort of start to notice little patterns, right? Do you believe in that type of thing?
Jim Harold:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I believe in it. I think it’s a real thing. I mean, there’ve been too many stories have been told to me, other stories that I’ve read, and again, there’s an excellent book out there about this, The Third Man Effect. I forget who wrote it, but yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I don’t think there’s any question. We had one story of a young man who was in this tragic car accident with his family, and this guy with a white semi shows up and he’s dressed in white and he comes to help him and nobody else saw him. And there’s been multiple stories over the years, and obviously not just on my shows, but a lot of places, I just think there’s too many reports of it for not to be a real thing. And again, to your point, if there’s somebody out there or something out there fighting us in a negative way, why shouldn’t there be a counterbalance to that? Go ahead.
Jack Wagner:
No, I mean, I’ve heard even my great grandma, I think had a story like that. Her, and I think it was her sister who’s a nun, got in a car crash, and they claimed that apparently somebody pulled him out of the car. Oh, yeah. They – obviously, they’re Catholic, they thought it was Jesus or some kind of angel. But even from just a very objective standpoint, I believe the paramedics were unclear how they got out of the car. It was crushed, and they said some guy came and pulled him out, but nobody saw a guy. This was sort of something that happened when I was maybe not even born yet. So I don’t know all the details, that’s my great grandma, but I feel like so many people have stories like that, right?
Jim Harold:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I got to ask you about this subject. I know you’ve covered it on the show sometimes, UFOs, where do you come down on UFOs? What have you heard about UFOs? Are folks that see these things are just imagining things or is it something that’s maybe showing us something not of this world, whether it’s extraterrestrial, interdimensional, whatever it is.
Jack Wagner:
Okay. I do not know. My opinion changes so much, and I think that’s the nature of it, right? You’re always – shout out to my friend Daniel Keller, one of the smartest people I know who’s just truly one of the smartest people I know who got fully pilled on UFOs out of nowhere for a few weeks. And then I watched him go from complete belief to absolutely, it’s entirely a government psyop, I don’t believe it in it at all to I don’t even know where he stands now, but it’s like I watched him go through all of the motions, and it is this infinite loop of confusion in terms of believing whether or not these exist, who’s behind it? Maybe it’s both.
It’s really, really interesting. I’m kind of interested in the reports that are more psychic related, something where people feel like they’re seeing it with their mind or receiving messages through their mind. I think that’s really, really interesting. I personally think that’s the key to understanding a lot of this stuff. If I had a gun to my head and had to guess what’s going on, I think, and by the way, that’s not to disprove anything. I think that completely validates it, that maybe we do have an ability to detect things beyond light and sound, and our mind does its best to make sense of those things. And maybe one day we’ll understand that there’s some stuff going on with AI right now that’s the beginning stages of potentially really, really wild advances. Not to go on too much of a tangent, but I was hearing about basically hooking up the brain to, I think like an EKG type machine, and then ai, using AI to basically read the brainwaves and eventually noticing the patterns of like, okay, this person’s thinking they’re thinking of an apple right now.
This is what happens in the brain where they’re thinking of an apple. And then eventually the AI just knows what the person’s thinking about, very rudimentary, but just based on the oscillations of the brain. So theoretically it could get better and better exponentially. And then the next leap from that, if it can read the brain oscillations, can it write? I mean, can you put something back into the brain? That’s a pretty wild step. That’s a pretty wild thought when you start kicking that idea around in your mind of like, oh, can they send something in? And maybe we’re not that far off from it. Maybe that’s what’s going on
Jim Harold:
Now for me, people say –
Jack Wagner:
Sorry, sorry if it was too… (trails off into laughter)
Jim Harold:
No, no. Hey. No, that was good.
Jack Wagner:
Whenever I talk, I’m still not used to doing this show. So whenever I actually talk about this stuff outside of recording voiceover, it’s very uncomfortable to me. I feel like it’s one of those conversations I’d have in the back of a college party or something when I’m out smoking cigarettes with some guy I just met being like, dude,
Jim Harold:
No cigarettes, but just met. It fits. It fits. Although I’m like Will Ferrell well in Old School, I’d be pretty old for college. But anyway, the point is, the thing for me is people will say, well, you’ve done these for years. Have you learned anything? Do you have any theories about what are ghosts, what are UFOs? What do you have, I have some theories, but overall I’m like, I don’t know. The only thing I do know, first of all, I was kind of a believer going in, but I’m maybe a little more skeptical than I was, but I’m more convinced that, in other words, I kind of believed everything. I don’t necessarily believe everything now, but I believe there is something going on in all these different categories, whether it’s UFOs, ghosts, cryptids, near-death experiences, whatever. I’m more convinced than ever that reality itself is way stranger than we give it credit for.
I’m looking at these lights and it’s a physical light, and it’s there and I can touch it, and it is what it is. But there’s so much more. It’s like the concept of ultraviolet light or light that we can’t see. I think there’s so much around us that we can’t see. And I think where we get tripped up with some of our friends from science, and I love science because we couldn’t have done this 20 years ago, no way. And for my home studio, we can do basically what we’d need a satellite for 20 years ago. I think it’s awesome. I think science is awesome, but sometimes people get so blindsided thinking, we’ve got it all figured out. We understand. What are your thoughts on all that, the nature of reality?
Jack Wagner:
Oh, I mean, it’s one of those things where it’s like, I think it’s beneficial to have a more flexible understanding of reality. I think it’s really silly to think that you can actually fully, the concept of reality, especially with our memories are kind of bad. And if you think back to your life, you really only remember a small part of it. There’s entire years of my life that I have no idea what I was doing. I don’t know what I was doing when I was 14. I could not list a single thing I did when I was 14. There’s random years I completely don’t remember. And that impacted me as a person. The stuff you remember even is kind of random and scattershot.
And then there are certain things that change your life that are strange, the paranormal things. So reality I think is a silly thing to begin with, and I think it helps to have, you can have a paranormal understanding of these things and it could be helpful. One thing I think of, this is really silly, but there’s been a few times in my life where it felt like I jumped into a different timeline. Not in the sense that there would be a story that would end up on your show or mine, but where I remember just in high school, one month, so many weird things started happening with my friends. Everybody started acting differently. Major shifts were happening. And I remember talking to my best friend, being like, dude, do you feel like we jumped into some alternate dimension? Everybody’s acting what happened? It felt as if one day everything just shifted out of nowhere and things went upside down.
And I’ve had that a few times where it genuinely felt like I jumped into some semi alternate version of things. I’m sure everybody can relate to that where you kind, everybody’s acting a little different. I know it could easily sound like I’m the weird one. I’m the weird one in that situation. But no, wherever everything just kind of feels like the bizarro version of things. And yeah, I don’t know. I’m kind of rambling right now, but it, life is strange, and I think the nature of being alive is very silly and illogical. So it’s useful to have tools to think of it that way. And I also think it’s useful to think of reality as something you could kind of alter, change, even if it’s just in the sense of improving your own life and circumstances. Sometimes when I’ve been unhappy, I’ve thought like, Hey, I need to jump into a new timeline. Part of that, I mean, I kind of did that when I started this show. That was a pivotal moment for me. And I think, yeah, people spend so much time being stuck in their own reality. It’s really not to go too deep, but I really do think that people take everything a little too seriously.
They think there’s a path they’re supposed to be on. There’s circumstances that they’re stuck in like, oh, I can’t stop doing this. I have to keep doing this my job or whatever. It’s not that serious. You could change things up if you’re unhappy, and I think everybody should do it. I think I’ve been in so many ruts, and it took me way too long to figure out that I needed to shake myself out of it. So I know this doesn’t seem very paranormal, but I think
Jim Harold:
I think it is actually.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, when you hear these stories of people jumping into a different world, a different reality, I think it’s important to do that on your own, even in small ways. You know what I’m saying?
Jim Harold:
No, I agree with you. 110%. So how has it changed your life? How has Otherworld changed your life and having this huge hit paranormal podcast and talking with all these people doing this research, how’s it changed Jack Wagner and just your life?
Jack Wagner:
It’s made me a lot more stressed, a lot of work. But aside from that
Jim Harold:
Podcasting’s easy don’t you know it?
Jack Wagner:
It’s made me, well, not one where you have to edit a ton, but yeah.
Jim Harold:
Well, no, I’m being facetious.
Jack Wagner:
Sometimes it is sometimes when you’re just joking around. I used to do, it was, but no, in all seriousness, it’s made me way more empathetic, I think. I’d like to think, because I’ve just realized how many people that you think you have figured out actually have something completely bonkers and unbelievable or horrific or amazing that they’ve been through, and just don’t really talk about. You really, really never have a person figured out completely, even if you think you do. It’s made me much more empathetic to people in general. I think it’s made me more kind. I hope so.
A weird side effect of this, and it is a funny thing to come from making a paranormal show, but I feel like I understand women a lot more than I did before, and I have a lot more respect for women and a lot more I’ve realized how stupid guys are generally. That’s a very funny eye opening thing for me in doing some of these episodes that are stories of people who live through something incredible. And just seeing how, I mean, as a guy myself, I feel like most men move through the world. They have everything figured out, like, oh, yeah, I’ve got it. I know everything. I read three books and went to college where I barely paid attention. I’m the smartest person in the world. I know everything. It’s like something I didn’t notice before. And now it’s something that I see all of the time, like this arrogance of people who think they understand everything. It’s shocking. And I don’t mean to isolate that to men, but it kind of is. And it’s something that I realized that women see that all the time. They see us talking all of the time sounding like absolute idiots, and they just let us do it, and they quietly think we’re the dumbest people in the world. And I don’t know. Something about this show has kind of woken me up and let me see that. I find that very valuable too.
Jim Harold:
You just laid the major epiphany on me because I think maybe I put it differently, but I have the same feeling talking about so many women about their experiences with ghosts and so forth. They’re a lot more emotionally intelligent than men are, because men put up this facade that, oh, I’ve got to be tough. I’ve got to be strong. I can’t show weakness and all of that. And there is a time to be strong. And I do believe that. I don’t think all masculinity is toxic. However, I do think you kind of nailed it when you said, guys, I’ve got it figured out, that’s stupid and I won’t take a second look at it. And of course, there can’t be other things in the universe than what I’ve formed my opinions at age 17. I think that’s very insightful, and I’d never thought about that, but I have to agree 110%, just having that exposure to women’s stories, their experience, and their emotional intelligence.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, I think my audience has grown substantially just on its own with women. I saw the demographics shift and women are quietly listening to really realize women, women secretly listen to just absolutely insane stuff every day. You have no idea. I mean, some people do if they have a wife or girlfriend or that they’re familiar with what they’re listening to, but I had no idea that just the average women’s listening to just terrifying podcasts,
Jim Harold:
Well, honestly, women are some of the biggest consumers of true crime podcasts, demographically speaking. And also my Campfire show is strongly majority women that listen. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that you’re finding the same thing. And again, I think particularly, it’s interesting because if you look at the Paranormal Podcast, it skews more male, which is more of an interview show where we’re doing, Campfire skews more female. It’s because it’s emotional. It’s telling people’s stories, and some of those stories can be terrifying. But again, I think it plays into that emotional intelligence and just my thoughts on it.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, I rarely see women cast judgment in the comments the way I see men do, especially with, and it really does bother me, especially when it’s something where it’s like, I’ve interviewed the subject for days, days, many interviews, and I’ve gotten into them intimately, spent so much work, and then I’ll see somebody cast just a ignorant, ignorant judgment and assessment of them usually based off a mistake. That’s the funniest. They misheard something and they’re like, oh, yeah. Well, obviously this, or recently some people were trying to doxx one of my guests, I just found this out, or not doxx, but they thought they found the house and they were doing the whole Google maps, like GPS searching. I just found this out and I was cracking up. I think they’re doing it based off the picture of the house that I posted, but the picture I posted was generated by AI. It’s not their house. I did that on purpose because, and it’s very obvious. I thought it was very obvious. And they’re literally scanning Google Maps based off the clues from the show, and they were like, oh God, they’re confident they found it. I’m like, how did you not know that image is an AI house? The picture has like eight doors on the house. That’s clearly not real.
Jim Harold:
And there’s somebody with three fingers or something, or 17 fingers.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah. But yeah, it’s like the arrogance of, there’s a certain arrogance to thinking, you know everything. I mean, it’s complete arrogance actually. Right? So that’s something I’ve recognized now, and just notice the bravado of how generally it’s usually men move through the world. I’ve got it figured out. I know everything. I’m the master of my domain, and in reality, most guys, including myself, are just idiots bumping into things in the dark and causing damage everywhere they go because they think they’ve got it all figured out and they’re blind.
Jim Harold:
Well, it’s a wise person who realizes they know nothing. I know somebody said that. I can’t remember who it is, but I know people should check out Otherworld. Jack, tell us about Otherworld. Obviously we can find it in all the podcast places and anything else you’d like to tell people about.
Jack Wagner:
Yeah, you could listen to it, of course, wherever you get your podcasts, I would definitely check it out. I think it’s a show mainly of people telling their own stories, but for me, it’s been a process of realizing how little I know about the world. So it’s been humbling doing this show, and I’m super grateful I get to do it. I would start from the beginning, but there’s a lot of great multi-part series if you want to just check out a few. So hope you enjoy it.
Jim Harold:
Well, Jack, I’ve enjoyed this time speaking with you. Thank you so much for taking time. I know you’re super busy, so I really appreciate the opportunity and all the continued success in the world to you in the show.
Jack Wagner:
Thank you so much for having me.
Jim Harold:
Thank you for tuning into this edition of The Paranormal Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And please, this year we are imploring people to share the show. We want a lot more people to know about our shows, both this, the Paranormal Podcast and the Campfire. Make sure that you follow or subscribe in the app of your choice. And we thank you so much. We’ll talk to you next time. Stay safe, share the show, and stay spooky. Bye-Bye.
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