The old hag? Shadow People? What explains these and other strange entities? G. Michael Vasey join us to talk about his concept of “Liminal People” which, in part, explains them. We talk all about these weird beings this edition of The Paranormal Podcast.
You can find his recent book on the subject at Amazon: Liminal People: Terrifying Nightmare Parallel Realities
Thanks G. Michael!
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TRANSCRIPT
[intro music]
This is the Paranormal Podcast with Jim Harold.
JIM HAROLD: Welcome to the program. I am Jim Harold. So glad to be with you once again.
Now, we’ve been doing this show since 2005, but a topic that has gone neglected is that of liminal people. But that is going to end today because we’re talking to G. Michael Vasey, and he’s going to talk to us all about liminal people because he has a new book out about that subject. It’s called Liminal People: Terrifying Nightmare Parallel Realities. We’re so glad to have G. Michael with us. He is a paranormal author and a magician who has done many, many books on paranormal phenomena at this point. G. Michael, how many books are you up to now, anyway?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: I think if you include poetry and business books, about 50.
JIM HAROLD: There you go. We’ve had you on quite a few times, but doing things like poetry and business books, why did you decide to turn your talents to the world of the strange and the supernatural?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Actually, the first book I wrote was one that tracked my experiences with a school of cult sciences that I signed up for in the Channel Islands. I was living in Texas at the time, and I did this five-year course by mail. I ended up writing this book called Inner Journeys: Explorations of the Soul. What that did was explained what had driven me to look for self-exploration magic in the first place. I talked a lot about fear and how I grew up with ghosts and poltergeists and all that kind of stuff.
So that went out with a proper publisher, Thoth Publications out of the UK, and after about a year I thought, “I’ve got a bunch of poetry that I write in my spare time; maybe I’ll put that out.” So I put that out as Weird Tales, and I self-published it. Well, poetry doesn’t sell, but somebody said to me, “Inner Journeys, the beginning bit is really good because you talk about all those ghosts and poltergeists. Why don’t you write about them?” I thought, oh yeah, what a good idea.
So I wrote My Haunted Life about my experiences growing up and as a young adult. I had lots and lots of stories to tell. A jacket that my ex-wife purchased in a used store – probably belonged to some fellow that had died – I put the jacket on, and over the course of an evening my character completely changed. I became this really evil Glaswegian guy. When I took it off, the spell was broken. Little stories like this. It sold pretty good.
Then it was like, okay, what do I do as a follow-up? It was My Haunted Life Too. I went around and started talking to friends and relatives, because everybody’s got a story; everybody’s had an experience. They shared their experiences with me, and by this time I was addicted to collecting stories. You just get addicted to it. So I thought, well, I’ll create a website.
I created a website, myhauntedtoo.com – which isn’t still active anymore because that kind of thing isn’t as popular as it used to be and there’s lots of other websites now where people can go and share stuff in a broader context. But I still do get the odd story posted there. So all of these stories out there, I collected them; I had more experiences of my own, and I continued to write – My Haunted Life – what was the third one? Your Haunted Life. True Tales of Haunted Places. Then I got the black-eyed kids story, and we’ve talked about that before. That was The Chilling Tales of Black-Eyed Kids.
What I tend to do is collect the stories, then look for a theme. Or I get interested in investigating the phenomena in my own way. I am a PhD scientist. I don’t use rigorous scientific techniques, but I do go off and think through, what could a poltergeist be? What could a black-eyed kid represent? What is reality? I’ve written a couple of books on the nature of reality; I have one called The New You, and I wrote another book with a series of short fictional stories called The Pink Bus. That didn’t sell very well, but it was on the theme of the nature of reality.
To cut a long story short, over the period of time that I’ve been writing these books and doing this research and thinking about what ghosts and ghoulies and things that go bump in the night might be, along with magical training and looking at quantum physics and a little bit of parapsychology and psychology and reading people like Anthony Peake – who you may be familiar with, I don’t know –
JIM HAROLD: Sure.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: I came to some conclusions. In fact, it was the sleep issue that I had on a train journey where I woke up but I couldn’t move, and there was an entity sat on top of me, from sleep paralysis. For a while I just could not move, and eventually there was a jolt of the train and I woke up.
For me, being kind of psychic, this entity was still there as like a slurky substance, and it went up into the luggage rack, where it sat. I went for a walk and I had a drink, I ate a sandwich, I tried everything to reset, and then I went back to bed and the same thing happened again. I had this sleep problem. This thing was sat on me. It was a very unpleasant experience. The train jolted again, I woke up properly, I saw the slurk go back up into the luggage rack, and I sat there all night looking at it, it looking at me, and I wouldn’t go back to sleep again.
I came back from this trip and I thought to myself, what is this all about? I started reading that this is a problem with sleep, it’s quite common, and you have these experiences. There was something intuitively wrong for me about that, because it seemed to me that it was the other way around. There are these entities; they live alongside of us in a different dimension. They know we exist. We are sustenance to them in terms of our fear and emotions like lust, and they use this particular method to scare the hell out of us and to feed on us.
I looked at it back to front to the way that traditional everyday science would, where they say that this is a sleep issue, and I said, no, no, no, it isn’t. This is how the entities are able to create fear and feed from us. This is a thing that’s been around for the whole time that humanity has. There are accounts of this in the literature going back – not thousands of years, but hundreds of years.
JIM HAROLD: In other words, as I understand – because we have, on my Campfire show, a lot of people call in with these kinds of stories about being asleep and seeing shadow people or maybe aliens or different kinds of entities presenting themselves in different ways. You go to a traditional doctor; they say, “Oh, you have sleep paralysis. You’ve got breathing issues,” or some kind of physiological explanation. You’re saying it’s the other way around, where you may have these issues legitimately, but the entities use that as an entry point.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: I have a feeling that the entities use sleep paralysis as one tool in their armory to create fear and feed from that.
When I look back at growing up with ghosts and poltergeists, the one thing I realized was how afraid I was, and the more afraid I was, the more it seemed to attract these ghosts and entities. My father once said, “If you can’t do anything else, rather than get afraid, get angry.” So I would get angry and discovered that this was the trick. If I got angry, it kind of knocked them back. Now, it wasn’t the complete solution. The complete solution was not to think about them, not to get frightened, and not to be lit up like a Christmas tree on the other side where they could see me.
So I have come to this conclusion, covering all these topics over the last 15 years or whatever it’s been, and Liminal People is really a book that pulls all this stuff together. Once again, it was triggered by an experience I had. I have been busy this last couple years dowsing energy lines here in the Czech Republic. I’ve written a number of books about that; in fact, I have my dowsing rods right here in front of me.
JIM HAROLD: There they are.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: It’s become a bit of a passion. I’m mapping a whole bunch of very big lines here with my girlfriend. This has been a very interesting experience in and of itself. But one day, I was out and about and I was tracking a line across the north of the city of Brno, where I live. As I was walking down the street, kind of in a meditational state with the rod out in front of me looking for this line, I turned to notice out of the corner of my eye this very unusual person.
It was an old woman. She was probably in her eighties. She didn’t look homeless, but she had attributes of a homeless person. She had like 15 plastic bags. But she was extremely well-dressed, and she had a little stool that folded away, and she was sat by somebody’s backyard hedge. She had a hand under the hedge and was fishing about in this person’s backyard.
It just looked so weird that even though it was out of the corner of my eye, I took my eye off the ball and looked. And sure enough, there the old woman was. I moved to carry on walking up the street; I found the line and I lost sight of her in the distance, and I turn around and I come back – the woman’s gone. No sign of her. I was desperate. I’m running around on this hillside, a street going up a hill, in this small town in north Brno, and I’m thinking, where on earth could be an 80-year-old woman with 15 plastic bags and a fold-up seat have gone in a minute? Just disappeared completely.
I probably would’ve filed that away as nothing much, but later that afternoon, I found myself in another part of Brno, mapping another energy line. It’s like an old factory with a bunch of garage lockups. I happened to notice this old gent that looked like Santa Claus – big white beard, bit like mine. He was sitting there again with a bunch of plastic bags. I thought, homeless person. And the very same thing happened: one minute he was there, the next minute he was gone.
This gave me this idea that there are these people that exist on the edge of our perception, on the edge of reality, the liminal boundary if you want. And these liminal people live half-in and half-out of our world. This got me to thinking, what if our world and our reality was like bandwidth, like a radio? I’m tuned in to a particular bandwidth, listening to a station, and that’s all I’m aware of. But across the other bandwidths I’m not listening to are other radio stations playing all kinds of different music, talk shows, and goodness knows what.
I got to thinking what if, in fact, I’m somewhere in the middle, and anything below me is like a lower vibrational frequency, and anything above me is like a higher vibrational frequency? So I started re-researching black-eyed kids and shadow people, all of those kinds of entities, demons. Then I started looking at the other side – angelic forces, like the third man type stories that you get.
Ultimately, I thought, hang on a minute. Some of these entities are liminal entities. They live in parallel universes. Some of them are aware of us, and some of them are helpful to us, and some of them feed off of us. And I developed this whole concept of liminal entities and liminal people and I wrote this short book and put it out, because to me, it’s an interesting proposition. It’s not too dissimilar to ideas put forward by people like Anthony Peake as well, so it’s not a long shot. It’s based on other people’s work as well as my own.
What I did was I asked for stories of anybody else seeing liminal people, anybody else having these experiences of people that are there and then gone again. Again, I got a flood of people writing in with stories. I reproduced some of those. Then I started looking back through some of the stories about shadow people, and I found quite a lot of stories that made me laugh because I realized afterwards they were evidence of what I was suggesting.
There was the story of the couple that move into the house, and after a while they realize there’s a dark shadow type person living in the house with them. They keep meeting him on the staircase, going up and down the staircase. They see him, and one night, as the man is going up the stairs and the shadow man is coming down the stairs, for the first time the shadow stops as if noticing him, and then turned and ran. Almost like to the shadow person, the human was a ghost.
JIM HAROLD: Yes. I’ve heard similar stories to that. We had one on the Campfire that I’m always reminded of. This is more maybe a time slip kind of story, but a man called and said when he was a little boy, he was walking through his house and walked past the kitchen and saw a hooded figure making a peanut butter sandwich, and he ran away. Then he recalled a later time when he was a teenager, and he was wearing his hoodie and he was in the kitchen, minding his own business, making a peanut butter sandwich, and he looks over and there’s this little boy-like figure running through the hallway.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: This is what the book goes into, and it uses these stories and people’s experiences to show that this is quite a feasible concept and quite a feasible idea.
And it works both ways, because it works on, shall we say, the dark side with demons and black-eyed kids and things like that, but it also works with angelic beings as well. Then you realize that these more highly evolved entities are aware of us, and rather than having a use for us in terms of sustenance or feeding off of us, they try to help us develop and try to help us through events that are traumatic, for example. That’s where you get the third person stories from.
JIM HAROLD: And the third man is somebody will be climbing a mountain – there’s a famous book about it – and they’ll sense they’re in great trauma, they might not make it to the top, they might die on the hill, but they feel there’s somebody there assisting them. But they can’t see them.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Yes. And sometimes the person actually sees a person, is aware of them, talking to them, but nobody else around noticed this third man, so called, and there’s no trace of that person ever being there. But the person that had the experience was truly assisted and aided through a traumatic experience by this presence or entity.
JIM HAROLD: So liminal people aren’t necessarily good or not necessarily bad; like us, there’s probably a mix.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Absolutely. That’s my view. I think that you can look at it in terms of vibrational frequencies. The lower vibrational ones further down this way on the frequency chart appear to be negative to us, and the ones with a higher vibrational frequency tend to appear to be positive to us.
I think that’s reflected in how they behave towards us. The black-eyed kid or some kind of demonic entity is quite dangerous to our mental health, and they are definitely interested in taking something from us, whether that be our soul or – I would rather say our energy, reflected either as fear or lust or one of those negative emotions. On the other side, there are giving entities that are responding to need, and probably what they’re giving to us, we would call love. And that’s how it works.
The more I thought about this, the more it made sense. I ended up, as I say, writing the book and putting it out.
JIM HAROLD: We’re talking with G. Michael Vasey about liminal people. We’ll be back right after this.
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JIM HAROLD: We’re back on the Paranormal Podcast. Our guest is G. Michael Vasey, and we’re talking all about liminal people.
How do you define “liminal people”? What is a liminal person?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: A liminal person is some human-like entity, or some human, that’s basically living on the edge of our reality. It’s almost as if at certain times you will experience them and at certain times you won’t because they’re in and out of phase with us. But they’re right on the edge of our vibrational frequency. I think it’s the Irish story, or is it the Scottish story, of the village that only appears every 1,000 years? Stuff like this. That sort of liminalness, whereas liminal entities are further out. They’re in parallel universes, but they can be aware of us, and at certain times and for certain reasons, those universes can overlap.
To give you an example, last year my eldest son was visiting from Texas, and I took him to a site in southern Moravia here near the Austrian border, which had been a Slavic hill fort at one time, a Slavic settlement around 800 to 1,000. I took him there because I wanted to show him the archaeological remains and the museum.
It was a very strange day. The sun was really weird. The atmosphere was really weird. There was nobody else around, and we had to walk through this quite deep, long forest to get to where we were going, which was an open space within the forest area. We didn’t get creeped out, but we kept remarking that it would be a marvelous place to make a horror movie because the atmosphere was right and the sun was low in the sky and all the trees were lit up by the sun really brightly. It had this strange effect.
It was getting fairly late, and I kept telling him “We need to start back. It’s going to get dark in about 30 minutes or so, and I wouldn’t like to be here in the dark, especially today.” So we started off back, and as we’re going back, we’re looking down at the trail. I said to him, “Do you see the mist down there?” This is a day that was so clear, there was no mist anywhere. We look at the trail and there is mist about 70 meters down this trail.
I start walking towards it, because you know me. I want to see what’s in the mist. [laughs] My son starts out with me and then gradually he’s hanging back. “Dad, I don’t think this is a good idea. That really is creepy, that mist.”
We had this idea that had we gone into the mist, we might actually come out the other side in the Slavic era or something like this. But to me, that was, again, the perfect opportunity to get onto the liminal – it’s the liminal edge of our reality. And often, in stories where they have an encounter on the liminal edge of reality, it’s associated with that white mist, particularly in the Irish lore where they talk about the white mist that has a different time or a different universe or different creatures within it.
Again, this idea is that we have this reality; it’s a certain bandwidth, if you want, and at certain times, maybe lunar or solar eclipse or whatever causes it, the next bandwidth can just overlap, phase in and out like this. As it phases in, people have these weird experiences of seeing people and things, mists, and so on and so forth, ghosts, that kind of thing.
Yeah, the stories that came in were all very, very similar in the sense of people for some reason would be walking along, not in a normal state of consciousness – and I think this was the trick here. When I’m down walking along with my rod, I’m not in a normal state of consciousness. I’m meditating and very focused on what I’m doing with the dowsing.
I think it’s possible to be walking along deep in thought, or perhaps humming a song in your head, and to get carried away with that and get into a different state of consciousness, and you look up and look down and think, “What the hell did I just see?” When you look back, it’s not there anymore. That’s liminal. That’s what I mean by liminal.
JIM HAROLD: Now, the more negative entities. Do you think there’s a certain trickster-ism or a shapeshifting ability in that perhaps these entities are projecting what might be most horrific to you, or most frightening to you? Do you think that’s a part of the picture?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Yeah, because I think their intent, being aware of us, is there’s a nice source of usable energy to sustain whatever they are in the form of fear and lust and those kinds of things. It’s almost like – you know in the Harry Potter book where basically you confront whatever you imagine and you have to fight it?
JIM HAROLD: Right.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: That’s almost like what we’re talking about here, like a trickster element where it will find whatever shape or form it needs to that will most scare you. And I think it has certain tools as its disposition. I think sleep paralysis is one of them.
Definitely I have talked to many, many people who, like me, have said the medical scientists can’t be right because if they were correct, then surely I would not still see the entity after I was fully awake and mobile. But some people the entity carries into normal waking consciousness, albeit not as the old hag sitting astride them or whatever, but as a sort of dark smoke or dark shadow that they can still see. In my case, that was what I saw, like a dark, shadowy figure that floated up into the luggage rack and sat there.
I could feel that this entity’s intention was not good. That’s why I didn’t sleep again. I’m like, “Okay, I’m not going to sleep. We’ll just sit here and stare at each other until I get to Frankfurt and you have some other victim.”
JIM HAROLD: It turns out that it’s more like a symptom, it’s not a cause. Because I want to be careful when we talk about medical stuff. You’re not in any way saying that these physiological things, apnea and all these different things, don’t exist. But again, the entity seizes upon those things as an opportunity to do their thing.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: I think the entity can utilize those states of whatever you would define them –
JIM HAROLD: Conditions.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Physiological states to basically make a bit more of a meal of you than they otherwise would. [laughs] If you can use that expression. I suffer from a little sleep apnea as well, so I definitely understand the problem.
JIM HAROLD: To me, to be honest with you, it’s not happened to me, but I would never – knock on wood – but nothing more terrifying to me than the idea that you wake up, you’re fully cognizant, you can’t move, and you see some very creepy entity above you or at the foot of your bed. That sounds to me like one of the most terrifying things I could possibly think of. So I empathize with anybody that has to deal with that.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: My 14-year-old daughter had an experience like it a couple weeks ago, and yeah, it terrified her. It is a terrifying experience. I mean, I was lying there on the train that was moving, and I could hear all the noises of the train. I could hear people in the carriage next door laughing and joking and drinking whatever. And I could not move. I just could not move, and I knew this thing was sitting on me, and I wasn’t sure what its intentions were, but I knew they wouldn’t be pleasant. It is an awful feeling. Awful.
JIM HAROLD: Now, we love stories, and I know that you collected many stories for this book. Could you share one of your favorite stories from this book with us?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: I fear I already did. [laughs] I just thought the shadow man being afraid of the human was really neat. And really fit the bill.
I came across not just one, but a lot of stories that were very similar in nature to that, where it was obvious that the shock wasn’t just on our part, but on the entity’s part as well. And that was because the two universes were basically overlapping, just momentarily, just enough for those two to see each other. I think that’s my favorite story in the entire book.
The book is filled with different accounts and stories just to demonstrate different kinds of experiences. It’s got black-eyed kids stories, it’s got shadow people stories, it’s got demonic and poltergeist stories, it’s got the stories of the people – there’s one story which is quite funny because it’s a young married guy walking with his wife and their baby in a pram. As he’s walking along through the park, this very shall we say attractive woman jogger jogs past. Of course, he can’t help but follow with his eyes, and he describes very well that he’s hoping that his wife hasn’t noticed that his eyes are following this jogger.
Of course, she doesn’t react at all, and he sees this jogger a couple of times, and each time he can’t help looking – his eyes follow her. I don’t want to be too graphic, but you know.
JIM HAROLD: I get the gist.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: He’s attracted to the shape of the jogger. His wife is quite a jealous lady, and when they get home he finally owns up and says, “I’m awfully sorry that I looked at the jogger. I didn’t mean – I just was caught off-guard as she ran past us from behind.” She said, “What jogger? There was no jogger. I never saw a jogger.”
JIM HAROLD: I thought you were going to say that it was an attractive guy jogger.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: It was an attractive female jogger. Maybe that’s why she didn’t see it, but she didn’t see the female jogger.
JIM HAROLD: I thought she was going to say that she saw an attractive male jogger, like they both saw different things.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: He said in his opinion, it was impossible that she had not seen this jogger because it happened multiple times, and each time, he’d done the rubber neck thing and was embarrassed by it. I thought that was a good story because it has an embarrassing element to it, that human element.
JIM HAROLD: It is. Let me ask you, because you’ve mentioned a couple of times that some of these entities – and obviously we don’t get too graphic on this show; we’re pretty PG-rated – but they will play on lust.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Yes. In the train the second time around, I began to realize that what it had in mind was definitely of a sexual nature and not something I wanted to be involved in at all, and that really was terrifying when I realized what was going on. A very strange incongruent feeling as well when the entity looks like a rotting old hag, but there’s a lust element to it that you’re unable to explain, that you know it is using deliberately to get a response from you.
Of course, this gets us into the realm of basically the succubi and incubi, which are essentially the same sort – I think they’re the same sort of entity and utilize lust as their sustenance, their energy.
JIM HAROLD: Any thoughts as we close out – and we want to encourage people to get the book and we’ll tell them how to do that – but is there any way to protect ourselves? Obviously, the angels and the helpers, we want them, come onboard, but the ones that have these darker energies, these more sinister intentions, any recommendations on how one could protect themselves? Or we can’t?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: I think that depends on who you are. If you have strong faith, Christian faith or Islamic faith or whatever, then of course I think prayer can be very helpful. If you’re not particularly religious or if you’re more of a spiritual nature, a trick or a tip that I would use is to imagine myself surrounded by a very bright, very light blue light of protection, and imagine as strong as possible that I’m protected.
But I think a lot of people in the paranormal start playing with things they shouldn’t, like Ouija boards and those kinds of divining tools. Don’t do that. That’s going to attract things to you that you may not be able to handle. I think it’s really best also not to think or focus on these things. You and I do because…
JIM HAROLD: It’s our job.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: It’s a job. But let me tell you, when I go to bed at night, I do not think about any of this stuff. I think about other things. And, touch wood, I haven’t had a bad experience in a long, long time. Not that it doesn’t happen from time to time, because it does. But how about you? Have you had any bad experiences with the paranormal?
JIM HAROLD: Not bad experiences. I did have one experience – I just shared this on another show, and I think it was a coincidence, but it did give me pause. I interviewed the late great Rosemary Ellen Guiley, who was one of my favorite people. I interviewed her literally I think 20 times. We were on a paranormal cruise that we were both speakers on, so I’d met her in person multiple times. Just a great, great person.
This was in 2013. I was interviewing her on the Jinn, and later that night my uncle, who had been ill but not what I’d consider to be deathly ill, passed away. He had been ill and in the hospital, so you could say that was just a coincidence. And then two weeks later, my mom passed away out of the blue. And those two things combined – Rosemary always sent me physical copies of her books. I have every single one of them, except for one, and it’s the book on the Jinn, which found its way to the trash receptable.
Not saying that it was absolutely – it wasn’t necessarily causality or anything, but it was a little too much correlation for me.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Yeah, I think you’ve got to be careful, because if these negative entities are interested in feeding off of your fear and you spend all your time talking about them and writing about them, as we do, I think you’ve got to be really dispassionate about it or deliberately do some protective work. And as I say, that can take the form of a little prayer. I certainly pray every night. I also use the light idea as well.
I even protect myself when I go dowsing because I’m opening myself up when I go dowsing, and you never know what you’re going to encounter. It may not necessarily be the kind of thing you want to encounter. Even if you think this stuff is all nonsense and fun, it’s only nonsense and fun until it happens to you. [laughs] Always, always take precautions.
JIM HAROLD: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Another thing that makes sense is for people to check out this book, Liminal People: Terrifying Nightmare Parallel Realities by G. Michael Vasey. Where can people find the book and get their copy?
G. MICHAEL VASEY: It’s on Amazon. I’ve got a friend of mine who’s got a publishing entity, and he’s put it out, so it’s available on all Amazon sites, in paperback and in Kindle format right now.
JIM HAROLD: Very good. I hope everybody checks it out. Liminal People by G. Michael Vasey. As always, it’s always fun and interesting to speak with you. Thanks so much for joining us today.
G. MICHAEL VASEY: Thanks for having me. I always enjoy talking to you, too.
JIM HAROLD: Thank you, G. Michael. And thank you for tuning in. We appreciate it, and we will talk to you next time. Be careful out there. Bye-bye, everybody.
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