The search for life beyond earth is serious business and Dr. Avi Loeb is a serious man. As an accomplished member of Harvard University, he isn’t joking around about UFOs and the possibility we are not alone.
On this episode, we talk once again with Dr. Loeb about his latest efforts to uncover the truth about who or what is in the stars.
You can find his new book, Interstellar: The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in the Stars at Amazon: https://amzn.to/3PJJPXz
Thank you Dr. Loeb!
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Jim:
Some people don’t take UFOs seriously, but our guest today does. I’m talking about Dr. Avi Loeb. Now, in case you didn’t know, Dr. Loeb is not just some average Joe. He’s the longest serving chair of Harvard University’s Department of Astronomy and he’ll guest with us today on the Paranormal Podcast.
Announcer:
This is the Paranormal Podcast with Jim Harold.
Jim:
Welcome to the Paranormal Podcast. I’m Jim Harold. So glad to be with you once again, and today is a red letter day because we have a fantastic guest. I’m talking about Dr. Avi Loeb. He is the longest serving chair of Harvard University’s Department of Astronomy. He’s founding director of Harvard’s Black Hole Initiative and current director of the Institute for Theory and Computation within the Center for Astrophysics at Harvard and Smithsonian. He also heads the Galileo Project, chairs the advisory Committee for the Breakthrough Starshot Initiative and is former chair of the Board on Physics and Astronomy of the National Academies. These are just some of his credentials. His newest book is Interstellar, the Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in the Stars. Dr. Avi Loeb, thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Thanks for having me. It’s a great pleasure.
Jim:
So Dr. Loeb, last time we spoke, we talked a lot about ‘Oumuamua, which was an object that passed close by earth and was possibly of interstellar origin and it seemed like an opportunity missed possibly by us to find out more about that object. But recently there’ve been other objects and I’m talking about IIM1 and IM2. And in the case of IM1, definitely there is not an opportunity missed because as I understand it was a meteor that crashed into the ocean and you led an expedition to recover remnants of it and there’s testing on it, going on it now, I believe. Can you tell us what IM1 is about that expedition and where things stand now?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Yeah, it’s in fact the first object from outside the solar system that was recognized back on January 8th, 2014. Almost a decade ago, US government satellites detected a fireball as a result of an object half a meter in size that collided with Earth. So it’s much smaller than ‘Oumuamua was, which was 200 times bigger than the size of a football field. But ‘Oumuamua was discovered by its reflection of sunlight and this object was discovered by the fireball it created as it exploded in the lower atmosphere of the earth over the Pacific Ocean. And what was special about this object was that it was moving very fast, so fast that it couldn’t have been bound by gravity to the sun. And we concluded that, and then the US Space Command confirmed it three years later after looking at the data again at the 99.99% that this object was interstellar.
And moreover, even outside the solar system, it was moving at 60 kilometers per second, which is faster than 95% of all stars in the vicinity of the sun relative to the local frame of the Milky Way galaxy. So the object was very fast, but in addition to that, it only lost its ability to withstand the stress from the air that surrounded it at very high levels. It had material strength tougher than all space rocks that were cataloged by NASA, 272 of them over the past decade. So this raised an interesting possibility. If it’s of unusual material strength and unusual speed, it may be a voyager-like meteor. Just imagine our own spacecraft Voyager making its way out of the solar system and colliding with another planet like the Earth. It would appear as a meteor of unusual material strength and speed. So we decided to go on an expedition to the Pacific Ocean and retrieve the materials left over from this meteor and I organized an expedition of 28 people and we developed machinery to collect the molten droplets from the surface of the object when it was exposed to the fireball.
And amazingly, we basically went across the region of seven miles in size. The ocean was deeper than a mile over there and we used a sled with magnets on both sides. The sled, the width was roughly a meter and we crisscrossed that region back and forth 26 times, like mowing the lawn, just skimming the surface of the ocean floor and looking for magnetic particles. These are molten droplets, spherules, that rain down on the ocean when the explosion took place. And amazingly, we collected the 700 of them. Obviously we relied on the fact that they might have iron in them and indeed they did. And that is the reason we picked them up with the magnet and then we brought those particles back to Harvard University and there we used one of the best mass spectrometers in the world to figure out the composition of the spherules that were found along the meteor path.
We went also to some control regions, background regions where we wanted to understand what kind of spherules are out far away from the meteor path. And then we found a special type of spherules just around the meteor path that have composition very different from solar system materials. The abundance of elements like beryllium, lanthanum, uranium was enhanced by factors of hundreds, up to a thousand, relative to solar system materials. And that provided an independent evidence that indeed this object was interstellar, that it came from an environment outside the solar system and together with the very high speed that it had, we now know that it was the first interstellar object that was discovered by humans. And not only that, that scientists analyze the materials of, and that is a historic milestone because this object was bigger than half a meter and we don’t know whether it had a larger size and therefore some bigger piece might be on the ocean floor.
We plan to search for it next in the upcoming expedition that we hope to make in the coming year. Because the fundamental question is whether it originated from a natural origin, very different from the planets in the solar system or the asteroids that we know about. Definitely not from Earth, not from the moon or Mars. We want to know whether it was a rock or perhaps of technological origin because perhaps those elements were put together for a technological purpose. And the way to find out is by searching the ocean floor and looking for a big piece because it’s easy to tell the difference between a rock and a gadget that has, for example, buttons on it.
Jim:
So what do you think or what could, I mean, and I guess it’s speculation to some point, but what could be discovered to say this indicates that there’s life beyond or third beyond our solar system. What could be found that could be kind of a smoking gun so to speak? And do you have hope that that might be found?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Well, if we find a big piece of the original meteor that definitely belongs belong to the meteor in the sense that we would find the same abundance pattern that was identified for the spherules and it looks like it’s a piece of a technological gadget, then we know that we have neighbors because the experience is very similar to finding a tennis ball in your backyard that was thrown by a neighbor. And that would obviously have a huge impact on the future of humanity because that technology, first of all may be more advanced than we developed so far, so we could have a glimpse at our technological future. Moreover, just realizing that we have a partner out there will change our aspirations for exploring space and then it will remind everyone that we are all in the same boat, the Earth moving through the ocean of space because that is the sense I got on the ship, on the Pacific Ocean where all team members work together selflessly. And it’s about time that we stop fighting with each other on this rock that we call Earth and start working together towards the success of our mission. And the mission is to maintain the life as we know it, not only on Earth, but perhaps send it out to other places in the Milky Way galaxy just to preserve it in the same way that the Gutenberg printing press made many copies of precious books like the Bible and as a result the content was not lost.
Jim:
Where does the study stand? Where do the results stand? How close are you to getting definitive results one way or the other?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Yeah, so as of now, we analyzed only 57 out of 700, less than 10%. So we have much more to study and I just wanted our early results to be available publicly so that we can get feedback from colleagues about how we can improve the analysis if we can. And obviously we can do the same and continue to examine more and more spherules that would improve our confidence statistically that indeed there is this unusual type never seen before in the literature kind of that we gave the name of BeLaU because BeLaU is an abbreviation for beryllium, lanthanum, and uranium that were very enhanced in that abundance pattern relative to solar system materials. And we can improve the statistics of how many BeLaU spherules are out there and also measure their properties better. And most interestingly, we wish to find the isotopes of various elements so we can figure out what kind of environment gave rise to this object.
And that would be another way to confirm indeed from the isotopes that it didn’t come from the solar system because the solar system originated from a gas cloud that had the same composition of isotopes as a result of a star that exploded nearby and enriched the entire cloud. So if we see an object that came from far away from a completely different environment that was exposed to a different exploding star, then we could easily tell the difference. And obviously if it’s a natural origin, then one idea that we mentioned in the paper is that it could have been a magma ocean planet that has an iron core and molten rock on its surface, and then some elements sink to the center because of their affinity to iron. And those that are left behind are the kind of elements that we saw enhanced in the spherules.
But if it’s of technological origin, what I would like to do is actually mix those elements together and see what kind of material I get because it must have material strength well above rocks or stones that we’re familiar with including iron meteorites. And another confirmation that this material came from an air burst, from an explosion in the atmosphere, was that some of the elements were missing. These are volatile elements that can evaporate within the fireballs. So that provided us with another confirmation that the spherules that we found with a unique BeLaU composition originated from an airburst.
Jim:
So in terms to complete this study, is this something we’re talking about months? Are we talking about years? When would you guesstimate that there would be definitive results or is it kind of open-ended?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
No, I think that within the coming months we’ll have much better data on the spheres and more confidence about the type of environment that they may have originated from. But then whether they’re natural or technological, I mean the original meteor, IM1, interstellar meteor one, which by the way sounds like “I am one” out of a population of objects like me, and IM2 is the second one. We recognize that we might go and visit that site as well. And again, IMs sounds like “I am two” of that population. So what we want to do is have an expedition within a year from now to visit again the site because now we know where the excess spherules were found and we can go back to those regions and search for bigger pieces and use completely different machinery than we used and we’re currently making those plans. We might also go and visit the site of IM2, which is somewhere between Portugal and the Azores, but my priority right now is to learn more about IM1 because it had a very unusual material strength and also speed, and that makes it very intriguing.
Jim:
We’re talking with Dr. Avi Loeb will be back right after this on the paranormal podcast. The Paranormal Podcast is brought to you by Grammarly and for over 10 years, Grammarly has been powered by AI technology you can trust and rely on to help you across all the places where you write the most. And now Grammarly helps you do even more with one click. You can easily brainstorm, rewrite, and reply quickly with suggestions based on your context and goals so you can improve your productivity for yourself and your teams. Now the thing is, is that I’ve been using Grammarly for years, specifically I use it in the column I do every week for my email newsletter because I think I’m a pretty good writer, but we can always be better. So it catches me on grammatical questions, it prompts me certain ways that I can adjust it to seem more confident, and those sorts of things.
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If you love the Paranormal Podcast, be sure to check out Jim Harold’s Campfire where ordinary people share their extraordinary stories of ghosts, UFOs, cryptids, and terrifying encounters. Find it for free wherever you listen to this podcast. Tune into Jim Harold’s Campfire today. Now we return to the Paranormal Podcast.
Jim:
We’re back on the Paranormal Podcast. Our guest today is Dr. Avi Loeb. We recently had the UAP hearings, the Subcommittee in Congress, the US Congress, and all in all, I thought it was very interesting and it was very interesting to hear some of our representatives like Representative Burchett and Representative Moscowitz, and I do appreciate that that came from both sides of the aisle. It was bipartisan. They both felt that there is evidence for extraterrestrial life and that it’s been covered up in their view. I think that’s a fair assessment of their views. But then you had somebody like Representative Eric Burlison from Missouri who was almost making light of it and making jokes about it and just kind of rejecting it out of hand, the premise that there is extraterrestrial life and that the government, the US government may be in possession of some evidence of that and maybe even some kind of craft of non-human origin.
But that particular representative, representative Burlison, kind of tried to make light of it, I think, and it was a little sarcastic I felt in his questioning. Now let me ask you this. You have somebody such as yourself, a man of science, very credentialed of Harvard University. You just don’t get any better than that, who says the idea of extraterrestrial life is far from a joke. Why do you think we have people in our government today who still are trying to make light of it and trying to say nothing to see here? What are your thoughts?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Well, they’re not scientists. And I mean obviously there are people also in the public and in academia that do not find the case compelling. People argue it’s extraordinary claim to imagine that there is someone like us far away. And I would argue exactly the opposite. I would argue that it’s arrogant of us to think that we’re unique and special. And in fact, it takes a billion years to go across the Milky Way galaxy with the chemical rockets that we sent out to space. And most stars, like the sun, formed billions of years before the sun. So they had plenty of time. If some other civilization developed to the point where they had similar technologies to those we have right now, they could have reached our doorstep by now. I don’t think that’s speculative. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to search for those things. And I just calculated that if instead of investing in military budgets $2 trillion a year, we were to use the same money to explore space within this century, we could have sent a CubeSat towards every star in the Milky Way galaxy, billions of them.
And it’s just a question of priorities. And the fact that we focus on conflicts, military conflicts on Earth rather than exploring space is not a good sign of intelligence. We are still surrendering to primitive emotions that came from the time when we were engaged in zero sum games in jungles where getting some food was at the expense of someone else getting food. And now thanks to science and technology, we can all benefit from science. It’s not a zero sum game, it’s actually an infinite sum game, but it sounds as if exploring space is a more esoteric issue. But I do think that it’s essential for the survival of our species. And perhaps that’s one reason why other civilizations do not regard us as very intelligent, because they see what we’re doing. We’re not removed so much from the animal kingdom here on Earth. But with respect to the doubts being raised, they’re not based on evidence.
And instead of saying extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I would argue that the people who say that are not seeking the evidence, they ignore it. Even when I went to the Pacific Ocean and collected materials that I analyzed, many of my colleagues would like to dismiss it because it doesn’t comply with their sense of self-importance. And they would rather believe the notion that we are the smartest beings that ever existed since the Big Bang because their ego; for the same reason that humans believed that they were the center of the universe. But it was very popular for a long while and Aristotle believed in it. So we have a tendency to tell ourselves stories that flatter us and ignore facts that do not. And I’m not surprised that many people in government behave the same way as many of my colleagues. They simply do not want to hear about it. What I say is that we should be modest.
We already learned that we’re not at the center of the universe. Humans came to exist only over the past few million years on earth, which is one part in 10,000 of the age of the universe. And if you arrive late to a play and you’re not at the center of stage, the play is not about you. And you better seek other actors to learn what the play is about because they might have been around for longer. And I think it’s a sign of arrogance of many of these people to argue that there is no point in searching and without searching we would not find anything. And the sky is not classified. It’s only government sectors that are classified. So this could be part of the mainstream of science, searching for objects that arrive to our backyard and are of technological origin. And only over the past decade we had the capability of detecting them.
So that’s why this meteor and ‘Oumuamua were discovered. But we should be curious, these objects appear to be anomalous and the US government, obviously their pilots and military personnel and that, talk about objects they cannot identify. And David Grush talked about programs within government that have some information and materials in their possession. So I do think that it’s all about evidence. Okay, so it’s not about what people say, it’s not about opinions which are very easy to come by. You can just sit on your chair and make an opinion. I mean, you don’t need to engage in anything. But actually seeking the evidence is hard work. And I don’t think anyone has the privilege of expressing an opinion on this matter unless they were seeking for many years the evidence and didn’t find it. And all we were doing over the past 70 years was to wait for a phone call at home, look for a radio signal. And that is very different from searching for objects in the vicinity of Earth because the sender could be dead by now. The objects will still be around, just like a letter in your mailbox. And if you were to wait for someone to call you on the phone that someone has to be active at the time that you’re listening.
Jim:
Now, some people say that not only are there extraterrestrials but they visited and they’re constantly visiting, there’s a wide scope of belief. And then you have people from SETI, for example, who say, as you said, let’s point the radio telescopes to the sky and hope something pops up. So where do you feel that you fall on the continuum? Do you think we’ve actually been visited by ET or do you think the jury is still out on that? And while extraterrestrial life may very well be out there likely to be out there that it’s not necessarily shown up at our doorstep quite yet?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Well, I’m guided by evidence and the first two interstellar objects, the first three of them actually Interstellar Meteor one, interstellar meteor two, IM1, IM2, and then ‘Oumuamua, they all looked unlike the typical rocks in the form of asteroids or comets that we find in the solar system. So I say, well, that’s intriguing because maybe there is an opportunity for us to learn about neighbors, cosmic neighbors. They may represent the space trash. I mean we sent out the Voyager, Pioneer, New Horizons, and once they exit the solar system, they will not be functional anymore. So the question is how many such objects are floating out there in space, just like plastics in the ocean, they keep accumulating over time, over billions of years. And the only way to answer it is by searching for these objects and checking whether they are technological, any of them is technological in origin.
So that’s an observational experimental task. And even though I’m a theoretical physicist, I chose to lead the Galileo project, which is a search for such objects, a systematic search. And the expedition that I described before was an example of such a search. And I just think that the SETI community was misguided by waiting for a phone call for listening for radio signals. We haven’t found anything, and it could be for a good reason because the chance of another civilization sending in our direction a signal when we are waiting for it could be quite small. But objects on the other hand, they remain bound to the Milky Way galaxy by gravity and we can still find them even if they were sent long ago, they just accumulate over time. And that is a research frontier that was not yet pursued. And the way I see it is that we can gain new knowledge if we allow ourselves to be open-minded. Not to say that anything in the sky must be stones, as some of my colleagues always argue. But if there are anomalies, if there are outliers among those objects we see coming from interstellar space, we should study them better and collect the evidence. And only then we would realize that perhaps we didn’t think right about interstellar space.
Jim:
Now speaking of interstellar, there is this new book, Interstellar: the Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in The Stars. Can you talk a bit about the book, your aims for the book and kind of what will be in store for people if they decide to pick it up?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Right. So the title of the book is actually the punchline of the scientific paper that we wrote about the interstellar meteor. It is interstellar, but the premise of the book, the content is mostly about the implications for humanity. If we find a package with a postal address from outside the solar system, what would it mean? And I think it would potentially teach us about the future, technological future of ourselves, and it could inspire us. Just to give you an example, in the book I talk about how to classify the level of intelligence in civilizations and the level of science and technology. And I suggest that it’s by the ability of the civilization to influence its environment. So I put us as a type D civilization because we are actually destroying our environment, we’re changing the climate, we’re not careful the way we behave. We’re sort of like visitors to national parks that throw bottles everywhere.
And the most advanced civilizations might not only protect their environment, make it more habitable, but could for example recreate their environment. And that includes the ability to create life in the laboratory and potentially also create a baby universe in the laboratory. Because once they understand how to unify quantum mechanics and gravity, they might have an insight as to how the Big Bang came started, what was there before the Big Bang. And then they might try to imitate that in the laboratory using quantum gravity engineers. And this is a quality that we assigned to God in religious text, the ability to create life, the ability to create the universe, but it may boil down to a sufficiently advanced scientific civilization. And the difference between religious beliefs and science is that what I’m talking about is something we can find evidence for by using our instruments. It’s not a matter of belief.
We’ll have our instruments recording information about technological gadgets that would look like miracles to us because the situation would be similar to a cave dweller visiting New York City and seeing all the city lights and gadgets out there and realizing, well, this is amazing. I’ve never seen anything like it. And that would be followed by a sense of religious hope, and it may well be the kind of feeling that Moses in the biblical story about the burning bush had. I would’ve loved to be next to Moses because that was the thing that convinced Moses about the existence of God, this miracle of bush that was never consumed. But I would use the infrared cameras that we currently have in the Galileo project to monitor the sky. And I could have informed Moses, whether the bush, what is the surface temperature of the bush, how much energy period time is emitted by the bush? And whether it could be a natural or it must be a reflection of a superhuman entity. And I think it would’ve made the experience of Moses far stronger knowing quantitatively how unusual the bush is. And the same is true for any advanced technology that we might see except we’re dealing with engineers that created it somewhere else that were far more advanced than our own engineers.
Jim:
It seems to me that science, I mean of course, even in the span of my lifetime, it’s been amazing the advances. I grew up with one phone on the wall with a dial on it, and now I have my iPhone here and can communicate with basically anybody in the world, video, audio, text. Amazing, amazing. So that seems to be rapid, but in terms of the huge developments, it strikes me that science can be not that fast. Something like the discovery of DNA or it goes on and on. So a lot of times we’re talking about not years, not decades, but centuries. Are you optimistic that we will get some of the answers in the next 20, 30, 40 years? And I’m very selfish in asking those particular numbers, but do you think that we, I’m not saying we’ll have a whole answer, but will we have some of the answers about existence of extraterrestrial or interstellar life?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Oh yeah, I do. One of the reasons we don’t have not seek the evidence, and it starts with Enrico Fermi’s question, where is everybody, which is a very lazy proposition because he didn’t try to use telescopes. I mean, space is huge. And also the expectation that within his lifetime he would witness evidence without using instruments. It is very naive. Nothing falls in our lab that we are not already familiar with. And gravitational waves required decades of developing LIGO to detect them. And if someone said, where are the gravitational waves? I mean, that doesn’t serve any good purpose. You need to build the instruments and put the effort to detect those waves. And the Nobel Prize was awarded for that after they were detected for the first time in 2015. So all I’m saying is that the extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary funding. The LIGO experiment costs $1.1 billion. And even though we pride ourselves, I mean we are very proud of technological accomplishments, nature is far more accomplished than we are.
It took many thousands of years before when we saw birds flying until the Wright brothers 120 years ago flew for the first time. And we still don’t have cars that heal themselves after minor accident, the way that the human body heals itself when we get scratched, there are no 3D printers that print 3D printers out of raw materials in the wild, whereas we humans are making babies and that’s out of raw materials and the babies can make more babies. And we just last December, had the major success in creating a breakthrough in nuclear fusion on Earth using lasers. But the sun has been doing it for billions of years. So altogether, I would say our knowledge is an island in an ocean of ignorance. And there is a lot to learn. But with respect specifically to the question of finding evidence for neighbors, I think if the neighbors are out there, we just need to seek the evidence.
It’s a path that was not taken, looking for objects that may have been sent by them, and therefore there is a chance that we will find low-hanging fruit and simply because nobody picked it. And that’s what I’m aiming to do in my lifespan, in the next few years. My hope is that we learn much more. And it’s possible that the US government may have some information we don’t know about because they keep monitoring the sky for national security purposes. They would be the first agency to notice something unusual. Astronomers focus on a small region of the sky, and also they train their telescopes on distance sources. If something passes overhead, they just ignore it. And so it’s possible that the US government knows something we don’t know. I think it’s inappropriate for them to hide it. If they do have possession of materials, they should make it available to scientists like myself. But for me, I’m not waiting for the government to declassify information they have, because the sky is not classified, the oceans are not classified. So it may well be that we will find the answers by going to the Pacific Ocean before we learn anything from politicians in Washington DC
Jim:
And to close out, do you think it’s at least possible that the US government is in possession of evidence of extraterrestrial life and they’re covering it up under the guise of national security?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
I mean, it’s possible. The question is whether it’s real or a fabricated story, the only way to tell is to actually see the evidence. And when David Grush testified under oath to the US House of Representatives that there are programs of this nature within government, he himself did not see the evidence. He just spoke to people who told him about these programs. And we need to see those materials in order to be convinced. And not only that, if the materials are made public scientists could figure out the meaning of those materials. How can one make sense of them the way we did with the Pacific Ocean Expedition? And I would very much welcome the opportunity to look at anything the government has, but I’m not waiting for it. I’m trying to do it myself.
Jim:
Well, applause to you for going on that journey and trying to get those answers. Dr. Loeb, I know people can find Interstellar: the Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in the Stars. I can find that at Amazon and all the major booksellers and minor booksellers and pretty much everywhere, right?
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Yes. You can also follow updates about my work at Medium.com. @Aviloeb at Medium.com. I post there any major development in the research we’re doing. And I very much hope that within the coming years we will know more and become more mature in a way. Because when my two daughters were at home at a young age, they thought very highly of themselves. They thought they’re the center of the universe and they’re the smartest. And obviously they had a psychological shock on the first day at the kindergarten when they saw a smarter kid on the block. My hope is that we will learn about smarter kids in our cosmic block in the coming years.
Jim:
Yeah, that’s really interesting because we do seem to think we’re all that in a bag of chips as they say. Well, Dr. Loeb, thank you so much. We appreciate it. I am just really heartened by the fact that we have serious scientists such as yourself looking into this question. And I think it gives those of us who are not scientists and don’t have those credentials, at least some backing that we can say, well, look at this man. Look at what this very, very smart, accomplished man is doing and why he believes this very well may be the case. So I applaud you for your work, and I hope that we get some very interesting results from IM1 thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Avi Loeb:
Thanks for having me.
Jim:
Thanks for joining us today on the Paranormal Podcast. And boy, what a great discussion with Avi Loeb. Dr. Avi Loeb, we certainly appreciate it. A very smart man, and again, I think he brings a lot of respectability to this field. We’ve had a lot of great guests over the years. If you want to find out more about our Paranormal Plus Club, go over to jimharoldplus.com. That’s jimharoldplus.com, and you can click there and they’ll take you to a page where you can find out about our Libsyn version, which is our classic version, which uses a standalone app for your Android device or your iPhone or whatever. That’s a separate app, the Spooky Studio app, and that’s been working great for years. And then we have something that is just about to embark on its one year anniversary. We have the Apple Podcasts version, which is great, and that’s even easier to find.
You just go into your Apple Podcast and search for the words spooky Studio Plus, and that will give you all the content that we do, whether it’s going all the way back to ‘05 with our archive shows of the Paranormal Podcast, and then Campfire, which started in ‘09 or all of those exclusive shows that we do. And you can access that via Apple Podcast. Just search for Spooky Studio Plus, and if you sign up for a subscription, you can access thousands of episodes. So either flavor is great, and we hope that you will consider joining our Plus C lub so you can hear many great interviews that we’ve done over the years with many great thinkers. We thank you so much for joining us today. We will talk to you next time. Have a great week, everybody, and as always, stay safe and stay spooky. Bye-bye.
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